The names have been changed to protect the innocent, etc.
I was browsing through your web page regarding AMWAY & WWDB because I was approached by a high school buddy as well as a complete stranger. The plan sounds enticing, until you workout the nitty-gritty details. Your website has been very helpful, and a valued source of information.
I have a suggestion. People have NO concept of exactly what 100PV represents. When I was shown the plan, the sponsor equated 1PV with $1.00 and never let on that you do not get PV equivalent to the purchase price of any item you buy! What would be helpful, is a page where you can put together 100PV bundle of products...and show the ACTUAL MONEY SPENT TO REALIZE THAT 100PV. When I glanced through the AMAGRAM, I was shocked to see a breakdown of some of the products, the PV, BV, DISTRIBUTOR COST AND RETAIL PRICE. It appears that you would be purchasing several months supply of an item in a single month in orderto reach the 100PV level. I think it would be very educational if you could start accumulating examples of 100PV. It seems to me that its almost impossible to consume all that product consistently, month in and month out, while trying to find 6 others to do the same, and hope they each can find 4 others to do exactly the same 100PV level.
Just a short note to let you know that Amway is opening here middle of August. All the big boys from Network 21 in Australia are here at the moment giving talks and so on. I remain cautiously optimistic and will go to a talk by Basil Harris on 8 May. He is a triple diamond falling directly under Jim and Nancy Dorman. Interestingly, he is an ex-South African who emigrated to Australia about 17 years ago. So he knows how to hype the crowds up. The response so far has been overwhelming amongst the Jewish population but lukewarm from elsewhere. I have actually been criticized by some of the avid followers from revealing information I found on the internet and mentioning court cases against Jager etc. People are funny. There seems to be this amazing hype about it but also a laziness on behalf of the followers. It is also very difficult to get people interested who have not been to the talks, as they somehow can't seem to grasp the plan. I promise to keep you informed, although I will be on holiday in * at the time of the opening.
Just thought I'd share some info on the tool Money. I had become curious about the system money, so I called up my upline diamond on amvox and asked him to explain the system money. He admitted that at certain levels you do participate in the infamous "System money" he wouldn't tell me how lucrative this was, only that it was another form of income I could look foward to when I reached certain levels in the business. He did say something that was very interesting to justify the tool money. He said that when you have a large organization to supply tools with, their is a large outlay of cash you would have to lay out to stock your shelves. (Let's say $20,000 for example) This is $20,000 that you have lost investing power with. ($20,000 that could be in the bank) So part of the cost of the tapes is to recoup this.
Have you heard this before ?
I just took a look at your examples for bundling 100PV and I thank you for the information and the diligent work. My one comment I have for all those budding AMWAY distributors is:
How long can you maintain a 100PV production level before your bank accounts vaporize?
It seems that many of the products in the first two groups will last an average family of 4 (2adults, 2children) at least a month and a half (even longer in some cases). It seems at about the 5th or 6th month, you're going to be hard pressed to reach that magic 100PV level. Who in their right mind would be interested in paying such inflated prices (group 3 consumable products)? Were you able to maintain yourself at 100PV for very long?
Thanks for your time and efforts...you are doing "Joe Public" a major service here!! Keep up the good work.
I think I may have a little scoop for you. Last night the Australian guys from Network 21 arranged a bit meeting at the local Holiday Inn. About 400 people pitched up. Before the meeting starting a representative of Amway itself, (no name remembered, sorry) stood up and announced that this meeting was illegal and in the interests of Amway, it had to be cancelled immediately. After a lot of arguments, it was said that Network 21 may not have public meetings like this until after Amway opened in August. He said that it gave Network 21 an unfair advantage. I thought this was very strange, because surely only Amway can benefit. But he said it was Amway policy and that was that. Piss off and go home. So all the little up lines and groups gathered in the parking lot and small home meetings have been arranged for the week-end and next week. I thought it was a very bad reflection, but I'm not sure if its a bad reflection in Amway or on Network 21. The 21 guys looked very embarrased, and probably know that what they were doing was wrong, but that somehow the Amway guys got to hear about it and intervened. Basil Harris, a triple diamond from Australia, didn't kick up much of a stink, so I reckon he knew he was in the wrong. However, there was still a large crowd gathered, all through word of mouth and indeed a lot of people who were there for the Amway meeting were all asking, What is Amway. A lot of explaining was being done, and I doubt that any of those will return, due to the disappointment and disarray. I will try and get to one of the home meetings, but so far have found out that Points Values are R9, (local currency) equivalent to about $2, and that your down line must be a minimum of 9 people. Quite a task. Lots of very enthusiastic people, mostly Jewish. Interesting....... will keep you posted
I JUST FOUND YOUR SITE TODAY AND FIND IT VERY INTERSETING. I JUST ORDERED MY BUSSINESS KIT LAST WEEK AND SHOULD HAVE IT IN A DAY OR SO. THE REASON I WRITE IS THAT THE PRIMARY REASON MY WIFE AND I GOT INTERESTED IN THE BUSSINESS IS THAT AMWAY JUST OPENED UP LAST MONTH IN THE PHILIPPINES AND MY WIFE IS PHILIPINO. BUT WHEN WE SPENT THIS WEEK CALLING SOME OF HER RELATIVES IN THE PHILIPPINES, WE FOUND THAT A GOOD NUMBER OF THEM WERE ALREADY IN THE BUSSINESS AND HAD ALREADY DEVELOPED QUITE A BIT CONSIDERING THE TIME PASSED. I AT FIRST THOUGHT THIS WAS DUE MOSTLY TO MY COMING ON BOARD A BIT LATE, BUT THE ARTICLE YOU PUBLISHED ON 5/9/97 (NETWORK 21) SOON CAUSED A RED FLAG TO RISE. YOU SEE, THE PEOPLE IN WHICH MY WIFE'S RELATIVES ARE GOING WITH ARE AUSTRALIAN, THOUGH I DO NOT KNOW WITH WHICH GROUP. WHEN I SAW THIS ARTICLE I SUDDENLY FELT LIKE A LAMB STROLLING INTO A MINEFIELD. GIVEN THE NATURE OF BUSSINESS IN THE PHILIPPINES, IT SEEMS ENTIRELY TO LIKELY THAT THE EVENTS YOU PUBLISHED ABOUT IN SOUTH AFRICA ARE BEING REPEATED IN THE PHILIPPINES; THOUGH BY WHICH, IF ANY, GROUP IS UNCERTAIN.
OUR PRIMARY MARKET WAS TO BE THE PHILIPPINES FOR STARTS. NOW I AM SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING GRABING THE EJECTION LEVER AND BAILING OUT BEFORE THE PLANE GOES UP IN A BALL OF FLAMES. I AM WITH THE BRITT TEAM AND HAVE READ A BIT OF THE INFORMATION YOU HAVE PUBLISHED ON THEM TO. ALSO VERY INTERESTING. I WOULD BE VERY THANKFUL FOR ANY INFORMATION YOU COULD PROVIDE ON MY CONCERNS INVOLING THE PHILIPPINES AND THE NAMES OF THE AMWAY GROUPS OPERATING THERE. ALSO ANY INFORMATION YOU HAVE ON THOSE GROUPS. I REALIZE THAT THIS IS MUCH TO ASK, BUT I WOULD PREFER A INFORMED AND OBJECTIVE VIEW RATHER THAN WALKING IN BLINDLY. YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN OF GREAT ASSITANCE THUS FAR. PLEASE KEEP THE SITE UP AND GROWING FOR INFORMATION IS TRUELY POWER.
I read with interest both versions of your story and your mutual "agree to disagree" decision where both said that nothing the other person has said has changed your mind in any way.
I have been part of the Britt system for a little over an year now and since you were a part of it and refer to the calculations of how much you paid over the year you were active, let me share my experiences.
I studied the people in the system for about an year before getting in. I was probably unique there too. I found the following BEFORE I got in, which prompted me to get in.
1) I found every person who was doing something were progressing in the
business. Funny the way that works.
2) I found that within about 2-3 years of joining, people were facing a choise of quitting their jobs and some were taking it. These are computer professionals with wives as computer professionals, each making in the range of 70-110K in their professions. Invariably, these were at the Ruby or Emerald level, where you know the business is more stable.
3) I found that my entire upline "got free" almost in the order they got in the business. This is 5 people over a period of 1-1/2 years or so. All of them had my background, my education, my kind of job, and my kind of family situation. I personally worked with a cross-line who walked out of his job on March 1. For me, the assertion that "100% of the people who work the business, don't quit, work smart, consistent, and persistent make the business work for them" was proved to me by personal examples time and time again. I am part of the Kanti Gala group, the fastest growing group in all of Amway last year, in case you want to check. I can also send you the names and ADA numbers of the people who did this should you so require to research my claims.
That was the prime reason for me getting in.
This was what I found out AFTER I got in, and started making a commitment.
I was told there was a running expenditure of about $150 a month which covered tapes, books, Opens, Attitudes, Seminars, Rallies, Gas, etc. I sat down with my upline DD, drew out a plan, AND started building my tools library with the money I had earmarked for Tools. As in any business (Most people lose sight of the fact that this is a business and NEEDS upfront cost in tools which are NOT Expenditures), we need to invest in tools BEFORE it starts making profits. Can you imagine going to a dentist who says "I am waiting to make a profit before I get a dentist's chair and drills. I am going to use my Black & Decker now for the first 10 patients so that I can make money to buy the tools I need."
The Seminars, ralies, opens, attitudes, night owls for the first year or so are an investment in my EDUCATION so that I can make the business work. I never heard of a college student entering into a Computer Science major course, going up to the proffessor and saying "Don't ask me to pay for books, notes, equipment, tuition, lab, anything now because I am not making any money. Let me get a job now, make the money and THEN I will invest in my education." As ludicrous as it sounds, that is what most people are saying when they complain of the high cost of tools and education saying I spent SO MUCH and my profit was ONLY so much. Try saying the same thing to a computer professional who is still paying off his student loan 5 years later and who paid thousands of dollars just to get a degree in the EXPECTATION of getting that job, worked diligently, studied hard, put in more the 40 hours a week, and was focussed on getting that job 4 years later. The Amway business, in the Britt System, can be done at a fraction of the cost for the same kind of education, tools AND when it starts working for you, returns much more.
As with the other distributor, my upline loaned me the business packages, tapes, books, drove many miles for me to show the plan, and worked one of my legs as the "Tap Root" where I did not need to worry. Try that with college education, where the professor says, I will go to interviews for you, go to your employer's place for the first month or so as you are new and will teach you how to do things, and I guarantee that the first project you get, I will do for you so that you can learn what to do. That is the parallel that comes closest to mind. I do not know any othe BUSINESS that does this at all.
Finally, this is a product business like anything else. When there are financial pressures, we encourage (AND TEACH) selling the products to make the money to cover costs of major functions. We just came back from Spring Leadership where 5 of us shared a car, 6 of us shared a room, 10 of us cooked at home and shared that food till Saturday evening, and paid $65 per ticket where the total cost per person was (including hotel room) was $120. It can be done, has been done numerous times, and the money generated in 2 beauty breaks that we conducted before we went.
I think that most people who gripe about the COST versus the PROFIT, seem to forget this is a business. Most businesses need a HUGE upfront Investment and then countless more months of working capital injection, before it even starts making money and probably years to recoup what money was injected. Everyone seems to forget this fact and thinks that since it is Amway, we must start making profits right away, or else I have been "deceived". As with all businesses, it requires commitment, investment, a lot of learning, and even after that, the same chances that your business will work as any other business. It is upto the person to make it work, and the Britt system only facilitates that process, but the final outcome is in your hands as in any other traditional type of business.
Show me another business where I can sit in the US, and through the Britt system have a couple of hundred people sponsored in the Philippines without ever being there. True, I made calls. True, I sent materials. True, I arranged other people (cross-line) to show the plan to my prospects and prospects of my downline, who did it for NO MONETARY Benefit to them. And, since I am from India, the same thing will work for me when it opens in India many fold more.
Show me another business where I can have downline in England and France where all I made was a phone call to send them to an Open, and filled out a form for International sponsorship. When they go DD, I will receive 2% of their volume. Not bad for making 1 phone call and filling up a form. That is what the Brtt System allows us to do. As in all "systems", rewards will only come to people who use the system properly to their advantage. If you use an electric drill to excavate for oil, your results will reflect your bad choice of tools. The Britt System is not a panacea for all ills, and we are not trying to cure world hunger. However, it, combined with the Amway opportunity, is an extremely good tool for Financial Security (Emerald & Diamond), the likes of which cannot be achieved by a job (even a highpaying one). Also, in the end, the Amway opportunity is a business and results come to those who treat it like one, work it like one, and stay committed to it as he would if he had paid $100,000 for a store.
Finally, to see how the Amway opportunity and the Britt System stacks up against a traditional business, please revisit your John Sestina tapes where one of the top Financial Consultants in this country analyzes this from a business analysis point of view. What the Britt System tries to do is to facilitate the process of making a success of your BUSINESS and give you better odds of succeeding than you can at a traditional business. Whether you choose to take the help that is offered and make a success of your BUSINESS (not cult, not social club, not price club, not scam), is totally upto you. You can take a horse to the water (The Britt System can probably take you halfway into the pond) but the decision to drink is left to the horse.
I hope I have been able to portray my feelings correctly, and yes, I have read everything on your site and others before writing this. I will welcome a discussionon points of disagreement, if any, and see what we can come up with. I can also furnish you with names and numbers of people should you require to talk to them directly to validate what I have claimed.
I don't know where you get the patience to do all these statistics and numbers . I'm a lot more direct than that . I looked at the business "Amway" , checked it out , asked around , was told by distributors it was going to be my own business and said OK . Now since it's my business and I own it , well I decide how much I'll invest into it . Nobody tells me to by this and that ( tapes and books and tickets ) . The self improvement books I owned before or bought at book stores and some from upline if I wanted to read them . They are good for most businesses you are involve with . The products are good on the average , some other brand names are as good , some worse , some better . I tried a lot of the core products , those I liked and do the job I expect them to , I keep , those I don't like I return and so far no question asked . After ten months in "Amway" all my products are free with a little left over . I was on direct ordering since day one , I don't have to pay my downline , Amway does it . I don't know if I'll ever be an emerald or even a pearl , some of the people ( 7) I sponsored are making a run for it , my daughter included , but I make sure to tell them to be carefull and not overextend themselves , To me it's still a small business and I keep the expenses down to a minimum . If I spend $300. per month including products and business expenses and I get $500 to $650 back it makes a lot of sense to me . I guess it all depends on who your upline is...
You want to know why people don't succeed in the Amway business? It is because they don't do anything. If they were to actually work the business for a year on faith, expecting no results within that year, they would become a Direct Distributor. The System works...people don't work the system...it is simple as that...
So before you go critisizing a system that is imperfect, look at the people who took that imperfect system and decided to make something happen with it. Those few people that you speak about are winners, not lucky people who got in when it was right. Those people has a dream and a vision, and were willing to do anything to get it...Amway was just a vehicle to get them there...those who are not successful with the Amway busines...why dont you ask them why they weren't sucessful? I will bet 100% of the answers consist of "it's too hard" or "I have no time" or some other excuse of that nature...that is why they fail..they make excuses.
My wife and I have been in the Britt "system" for several months and we feel our sponsors are not very honest people. We still believe that we can build the business ethically; however, we are searching for a sponsor who beliefs in providing people with the true facts of the business before they get involved. We do not believe in false hopes, nor do we want to mislead people by telling them it is easy and you can be a direct in six months. If there is such a thing as an honest distributorship, please let us know. We would like somebody that is at least an emerald.
Thanks for your reply .It is appreciated . The point I was trying to clear with you is that a lot of people who get in this business do not treat it as if it was a business , their own business... It does not matter what kind of business you are in , if you do not control the expenses , you are 90% or more sure to fail .. You have to predetermine what you want out of your business and I mean set yourself a goal that is attainable , not a pipe dream , be realistic ...If all you want is purchase from the confort of your home , then do it , but don't expect to make any money doing it ... You don't have to go to meetings and functions to do that , no expenses....If you want a little more , in the next year or two , get about ten distributors under you and your purchases will be free ... still no expenses , maybe a couple of teaching seminars $50 max. Once you reach that point then and then only sould you make a decision if you want to pursue this line of business , by then you would have a good idea on the ropes of the business and there may be some other in your downline already building a business . I do not know the organisation you were in so I can't coment on it , but if my upline did to me what you say they did to you I probably would not be involve any more either . I truly beleive a good upline makes or break this business and I was lucky enough to get involve with people that respect me and let me go at my own pace , I know that sometime they would like to see me do more and attend more functions but like I said it's my business and they realise that if they let me do it at my own pace we all can get along easier
I really enjoyed browsing through your site. I've been searching for another MLM business to get into, and thanks to you, Amway won't be one of them. However, I do have a question that I hope you can answer for me. I was approached recently by a very successful dentist on something called Interactive Distribution. He claims that it's not Amway, but they still sell Amway products along with several other thousands of items. You can either call their 800 number, use a software on your computer, or scan your products with a UPC coder, and everything will get delivered right to your door. After asking more questions, I found out that this "new" business was started by an Amway rep. named Dexter Yeager(I think) who broke off from the company to start this new venture. Is this still Amway? I would love to hear your thoughts on it. A good friend of mine has already signed up and I would like to convince him otherwise if it is Amway. Thanks for you time and I hope to hear from you soon.
After just a couple of months in Amway, I began to get turned off by all the HYPE - these Saturday night meetings with people whooping and hollering just because some Diamond was on the stage - Or, all these messages on AMVOX about how some event was going "to be great," and you go and its just another presentation of the plan, with 90 distributors hogging the good seats in the front and only 10 prospects.
I was bitterly disappointed after finding out that the brochure mentioning "Internet" systems had nothing to do with the WWW. It was at a time that web pages were just starting to happen and I loved the idea of marketing products through a network of computers. Not so.
I might have liked the idea of showing the plan if everyone would just do the "15 minutes on a napkin in the restaurant" version. But anyone presenting the plan to a group liked to show how knowledgeable they were, with white boards, references to Paul Zane Pilzer and Money Magazine and as one friend pointed out "you've just spent an hour telling me what this thing is not... it's not a pyramid, it's not a ponzi, etc" But new success minded recruits model themselves after their show-off directs and sure enough at one of those hotel presentations the guy had gone a hour and a half and had not even drawn circles yet!
I decided I didn't want to spend every Friday (though order day and pick up day changed 3 times in 3 years) night for the rest of my life having people coming to my garage to pick up their supply of boxed heartburn causing magic meals. Direct ship would have changed all that but by the time it happened I was burned out.
Thanks to you and Jason for great web pages.
Hello, I am just interested in seeing what others have to say. Not that I am negative about the business. I am 22 and my husband also is 22. He is in the air force and me a biochem major. first off I'd like to ask where you are from? I am in California and by your stats the most diamonds and emeralds came from this state. I think I know why. There was a support system created our here that not every groups uses. It is called INA. This year we just implemented direct shipment in which everyone orders their own products as well as customers. I don't think everyone across the nation is doing this yet. The support here is better which may be why some are disgruntled on results. Granted the larger meetings are held in central locations according to number of distributors. A comment on political contributions. Now, let's say hypothetically that you were in that position and wished to donate to a cause or group that you feel passionate about. Wouldn't you do it? does everybody else have to believe in the way you do? I thought we had certain rights and freedoms? At least they know what they believe. There are many out there that don't have opinions on anything. That is sad. About education. As a student and seeing those like me looking for work in there respective career fields it is scarry. Look at cars, their cost is going up faster than our pay checks. I am not ignorant, but in fact open my eyes to what is happening before us. For those of the baby boomers I guess it doesn't look too scarry. You have pension plans that you have been building up and 401k's. Everyone is talking about how social security is going to be non-existent some time in the future. If you look at how many people are on it and have never put any money in SSI it is obvious that it will run dry. My husband and I togethor don't put enough in to write one person's SSI check for a week in on months wages. I tried to read all of your items, but since I need to get ready for a small function tonight I had to cut it short. One more note though before I go. I know you mentioned that most directs don't make the full 2000+. I hope I don't sound too crazy, but an an extra 1000 a month would make an excellent retirement fund now wouldn't it? So long for now.
Just thought I could throw a different perspective on the reality of the Amway Corporation as a company that has your "best interest at heart". Lest, anyone forget, this is big business, and should not be confused with an emotional relationship that one may have with their sponsors or friends in the business. Amway as a company has only one thing that interests them and that is the bottom line. There may have been a day in the past, where people came first but that is simply not true anymore. Not to say that your upline isn't concerned for your welfare. I'm just stating that the corporation side is not. And I believe that I am qualified to make that arguement. The following story and information is a brief expose of the last 7 years in the business.
In 1990, while going to college I was presented with the Amway opportunity by a local businessman who by all appearances was quite successful. A 6000 sqft house, Mercedes, time with his family and money. Those are external varibles that most of us wish to attain during one point of our lives and when a person puts out his hand an promises to help you attain them, what would you say. Well, I said thanks, but later. I had every intention of finishing college and becoming a doctor like my father but after 4 years of life and school and life....I deceided to begin my Amway business. I contacted that person who was a Ruby at the time and relocated with the total intent of building this business. I was not under the illusion of attempting the business, I was dead set on making it happen. No if's, and's, or but's. I was sold out! With in 7 months I was a Silver Producer and received a bonus check over $ 4,800.00 gross and kept $ 2,800.00 of it. I thought that was pretty good. I kept showing the plan and supporting the system in everyway I was taught and within 10 months I was a Pearl Direct with 4 Silvers in my business and hundereds of distributors downline. I receieved a bonus check of $ 16,649.28 and I was excited. I was focused and determined to do whatever it took. The only thing I didn't do was think...I was so focused on what my upline had said that I never questioned their integrity. As a single male with 3 part-time jobs and a business to build...I had no time to question my uplines counsel. I knew that they had the fruit on their tree's and I was going to do whatever it took to play in Hawaii with them.
About my 5th year in the business and ten's of thousands of dollars later. I started to realize that some of the Directs and Rubies and Distributors that I had been acquaintances with in the past where starting to disappear. I had really enjoyed the company of some of them so I sought them out to see what was wrong. Some of them where responsible for spurring me on in the business. After tracking them down, I was bombarded by all kinds of negative stories about their struggles in the business and with the upline that I had grown to love and respect. I couldn't believe they would slander and wine about their problems like that. They had been part of the functions and Direct meetings. They knew they had to take responsibility for their actions. So I questioned their integrity and accused them of all kinds of malice. I just knew that if there was anyone to blame for the things they were saying, it was them. They had lost focus and become negative. Probably from not being apart of the system anymore and being influenced by negative friends and family. At least that's what my upline said. Cause every Amway distributor has "Negative Friends and Family". They are the ones that don't get in your business or don't agree that this is the best business in the world. Or maybe those that never buy any products from you. Not one time in my 7 years did anyone of my friends or family except my mother buy one product. But they all supported me with their lips. I used them as motivation, I would show them that I can make this work and no Negative friend, family, or distributor was going to stop me.
I never thought once that it would come from my upline or the Corporation itself. But that is exactly what happened. You can call me dense, but sooner or later I will wake up. I began researching the claims of these disgruntled distributors and former friends. I found person after person, that were hurt financially, emotionally, spiritually, and internally. By that I mean, they lost perspective, values and ambition. They had been completely drained by the overwhelming barrage of manipulation brought on by their upline and the companies lack of address. They, the corporation, continually sided with the big pins and completely overlooked any claims, whether there was documentation or not. And most of the time there was ample evidence and documentation.
For almost 2 years I sought anwsers to the moral dilema before me. I had countless counseling sessions with my upline. From my sponsors all the way up to the head of the organization. They where all Diamonds and above and should have been able and willing to address they concerns but not one of them sought the information neccessary to correct the challenges. They, instead questioned me for information that they could use to difuse the problem people. They were in fear that one bad egg would spoil the bunch. And for some time they had to do alot of mending. Since the upline choose not to do anything to address the issues, but only wish to cover them up. Something that I have found to be true in every organization from Worldwide Group, INA, Britt, Yeager, Network 21, ILDI, and many others. They are big business and have the bottom line to protect, and if you think that not to be true then you are a bigger fool than I was. At least you are getting fair warning. I had to learn by trial and error. You don't. By the way, I do have all the documentation for over 5 years worth of dialog from my uplines and the corporation.
Back to the Corporations part. They where called into conciliation in December of 1995 and myself and several other so called disgruntled Direct and above distributors where flown at Amways expense back to ADA, Michigan. They put us in the Grand Plaza and commensed to a formal ADA panel hearing in which Amway Legal, Distributor Relations, Rules and Conduct as well as 5 member of the ADA Coucil where present. The room was full of suits to the degree that one might have thought that something would finally get done. After the testimony of the witnesses the board withdrew to discuss all that they had heard in oral testimony as well as review all the written documentation that they had been provided. Several weeks went by and we all received a letter of Facts of Finding from the ADA Council. They found that all that we had testified to, was not only accurated and that the person(s) involved was liable for all said actions. They then gave some recommendations to Amway at an attempt to settle the matter. Again after several more weeks, Amway concluded that not only was the parties in question liable but that they were not going to do anything about it. That they would not support the councils recommendations in full. And they then desided to place a hold on over $ 50,000.00 worth of returned products until the distributors signed a Hold Harmless agreement not to pursue the corporation or any other persons involved in these matters. This is that great moral company in the sky that so many unaware people are defending. They only know what there sponsor or some function speaker or tape is telling them to be true. They don't have a clue what is coming in a few years. It may take years before they realize how they have been munipulated into this business. And that is coming from someone that spent over 7 years in the business and actually built it. Not someone who tried it for awhile and quit. Not someone who got mad because they did get any help. That is all bologna...I believe that I have the right to speak on behalf of those that actually built the Amway business. I believe that unless you have been a part of the secret Direct Meetings and above, the private upper pin counseling sessions or the exclusive upper pin club meetings...you don't know anything about this business.
You probably never will, because most people quit before that happens. But if for some strange reason you make it to the upper pins in this business, then you will have to agree that what has been said is true and that this company does take advantage of the ignorance of the people. It's easy to confuse the already confused masses. I challenges any pin to refute these facts of testimony and come clean with your own experience. You know that you have in one way or another by self commission or by knowledge of others in association been witness to the immoral practices that this business requires for significant growth. And if you challenge this then be prepared for open hard questions and providing proof of your claims....cause I know what to ask...the new distributor may not.
If you want scanned copies of the documentations...then that can be arranged. I have nothing to hide about my experiences with this company, good or bad. I just want people to be informed before selling their soul to this Dream. Completely Sincere,
Check out this web page: http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/cases/tax/amway1.htm
Apparently the state of Missouri took Amway to court over some tax issue. Pretty boring, but in this decision it mentions a couple of interesting things. One is that the court rejected Amway's usual claim that distributors are "independent" and therefore not representing Amway:
"The next question is whether Amway or its representatives solicited the sale of the distributorships. Amway argues that because distributors are independent business people and are not employees, the solicitation of the sale of distributorships is not done by Amway representatives. Part and parcel of Amway's marketing plan was that distributors were authorized to solicit the sale of new Amway distributorships. Amway and the new distributor were the only parties to the distributorship agreement. All the proceeds of the sales of the distributorships went to Amway. One may be a representative or agent for the limited purpose of soliciting sales without being an employee and without having the legal authority to enter into contracts on behalf of another. In the statutory context, the plain meaning of "representative" is simply one acting in the place of another. Webster's Third New International Dictionary 1926 (unabr. ed. 1966). Notwithstanding the disclaimer of agency in the application, Amway's distributors were clearly authorized to act on behalf of Amway in soliciting the sale of distributorships. In doing so, they were Amway's representatives."
The other is that Amway makes a substantial profit from both the sale of distributor kits and the annual renewal fees, the point being that Amway Corp. makes money even no product is sold:
"Doubtless the sale of distributorships spurred product sales, but it also generated significant income for Amway independent of the sale of any tangible products. Even if no products had been sold by its distributors, Amway enjoyed income from the sale or renewal of each distributorship. During the audit period, the distributors paid a minimum renewal fee of approximately $5.00 each. By 1980, the last year involved, there were over 35,000 Missouri distributors. The minimum income for that year would have exceeded $175,000.00. The solicitation of the sale of distributorships was not an isolated or transient event, but an ongoing source of income separate from the sale of products or merchandise."
Of course those 35,000 distributors also represent over $5 million in revenues from distributor kits.
Hello, Charles... great site! Keep up the good work!
This fact is unsubstantiated, but it is from my many years around the business, and what I have heard. I have had Diamonds tell me that you could consider a Diamond to be a millionaire (as their business could be in the vicinity of 1-5 million volume). However, if you count the income level of $250,000 quoted by Dr. Stanley, then you would also have to include *some* Emeralds as well. I think it is a safe bet that most Pearls have not had the chance to develop a mature and stable enough organization to reach this level of profitability (though it *is* possible by the numbers... just envision a sufficiently "deep" Pearl with cascading legs that contain 2 directs each, and if you understand how the Pearl bonus works, you can nail down a few hundred thousand a year). But, I digress.
So, for your purposes, I think you can safely count all Emeralds and above in your "millionaire numbers", and not be accused of leaving anyone out. (In fact, you will be accused of being overly gracious).
I wish to thank you for all your hard work and the obvious hours that went into your research. I can only say that I believe your motives to be pure and that I have nothing but the highest praise for you.
I am just a mother. I have three children. One has taken the bait and is under the influence of the Britt line. The other two (thank God) have resisted the slightest temptation to get involved.
Before I ever knew anything about Amway, my intuitive hackles were raised. I've wished her well on her endeavour, never believing a word she said was anything but regurgitated hype. I found your site while I was researching "the business" so that I would at least know what to fear. I had hoped to find something that would convince me that she hasn't bought the Brooklyn Bridge. I've found absolutely nothing in the pro-Amway sites that sounds like more than "Stepford Wives" brand thinking. Each site is a rubber stamp of the one before it and the catchy phrases and symbolic propaganda is sickening. When we hear this kind of thing coming out of a Communist country, we recognize it for what it is. Over and over I find rude remarks, vague promises, and unsupported claims AND it is all wrapped up in "Amspeak".
In contrast, your site and most of the "Amway Exposed" type sites are very well written, original, and thought provoking. They are the sites with the facts and figures to back up what they are saying. I've taken the time and trouble to check some of the sources and they are accurately quoted. Congratulations on a job well done.
To me--and this is just my own view--"the dream" is based on the concept of the few fleecing the many for the purpose of fulfilling their own greed. The end seems to justify the means for these people. Somehow they buy into the principle that to do so is to generously "share" their money making secret.
Good old fashioned common sense tells you that you can paint doo-doo any color you want to but it still smells the same.
I will continue to pray for the enlightenment of those who continue to "share" their unfortunate victims.
P.S. I thought it was interesting that people still ASSUME that you are working a job that does not provide enough to live on or that your retirement stategy will not give you adequate support in your later years. I recognize it as another variation on the theme that "you can work your 40 hr job--ME, I am going to retire" crappola. Too sad.
I'm writing this message to all of you, my "collegues" who run a web space about MLM, mainly because after having read many of the responses you got, I think it would be useful to point out my humble point of you:
I'm Italian, as you know, and European as well, and it surely appears to me that the American "Puritan Spirit" is something that is at the basis of what both MLM-enthusiasts and "disgruntled" think and say. The strongest argument most of distributors use is: "Try to find something else that will allow you to retire in 5 years". It seems that if you fail to find something like that then it means Amway is the best opportunity.
Life is not a "do or die" matter. I'm 34, married and planning a baby, have a job. My income is less than $30.000, my wife's $15.000, but life is different, here. I can afford two holydays a year (went to Egypt and USA, and I'm going to Zanzibar next September), live in my own house, have a small, but confortable car. Enjoy skiing, horse riding. I live an honest life, and, above all, I FEEL FREE.
I'm not interested in spending my life on the beaches of the world and have tremendous respect in people who serve me drinks when it happens I go there. I think that common sense, education, love and health are the biggest capital we have. Why should I aim to became rich? I'm fine, this way, because I have something to do in my spare time! Because I HAVE spare time.
I think that MLM is rubish, but that's not the only reason why I do not partecipate in it. Running one's own business is not at all the only way to achieve wealth and money. It's surely the only way to became rich, but it does not mean you'll succeed EVEN IF YOU DO YOUR BEST. C'mon, kids, "If you really want it, you'll have it" is the biggest bullshit I've ever heard.
Enjoy what you have.
Try to improve yourself.
Behave so that you have a good opinion of yourself.
There's nothing wrong with a job. Some billion people are doing fine with it. Surely more than the one tryin' to do it with MLM.
Thanks for your time.
Been "cruising" all the sites for months now ... the further I go the angrier I get at the deception of the "system" !! Charles I responded to your tape survey ... I hope it helps and I look foward to reading the results! I would like to comment though on the prices you quote for the functions.... I believe you state that you were in the Britt organization so for the record I would like to let you know what we paid for functions in the Yager organization! All major functions: Dream Night( Jan), Family Reunion(June) and Free Enterprise(Sept.) the tickets for these major functions started at $95.00 and went up to $100.00 and $105.00 (thats per person) in 2 week incriments.. topping out at $105.00 up to and including the days of the function. If a person could not attend the function on Friday night they still paid the full price even though they only went on Saturday, and believe me their were many people who did this, in fact they were encourged to be there, so what that the functions were at the most an 8 hour drive... hey you do whatever it takes and at whatever costs to succeed, no guts no glory(blah blah blah)! Then there was always the "meeting" on Sunday after the church service and that ran between $5.00 and $10.00 per person and if you did'nt make it to that one well then you would really miss out on some valuble info to help you to that next pin level and beyond ( blah blah blah) ! So what that it ran till 5 or 6 in the afternoon and you had to drive 8 hours home...Hey you had all those new tapes that you bought at the function to listen too on the way!!! Then there were those "special" functions that only a few( "your the man" "your such an awesome couple" "your are awesome leaders" blah blah blah) of the "chosen" ones could attend...... Mens Leadership(nov. 95) $80.00 per.... 1000 and above Leadership (Nov. 96)... $100.00 per and the Couples Leadership (you were "hand picked" by your Direct or Emerald for this one...Jan. 97) $100.00 per couple...... plus the cost of Hotels, gas, and food!!! Then there were always the special little opens and events when one of the "MAJOR" Emeralds or Diamonds came to town. And I have not even started on all the monthly meetings.... once a month Wilson Open $6.00 per person plus off to the coffee shop afterwards $20.00 (we were always told to eat light and tip big...hhhmmm wonder if they had a deal going with the waitresses)!! Plus here in our organization our Emeralds from about Oct. 96 on had set up weekly opens $4.00 per person plus weekly training seminars $4.00 per person on how to work the SOP(standing Order Program) etc.... and hey your upline is doing you a great service by renting the facility and sharing his great wisdom with you so you should honor and edify him(---PUKE I hate that word) and make sure you are at ALL of these!!!!! Then there were the monthly seminars $12.00 per person all day Saturday plus the leadership on Friday night for 1000's and above $3.00 per person plus meals on those 2 days!!!!!! Plus the gas and the mileage to and from each of those.......plus "runnin the roads" 5 to 10 hours a week and those out of town trips for your out of town groups and of course then there was the 8 hours a day at yourJOB(Journey Of the Broke) to finance all this!!!!Of course then there were the "freebies",(no money to get in) the house plans being done that you were encouraged to attend so it would look good for the prospects, the "nuts and bolts" sessions at a Direct or aboves house,the "Home Cares"(product demos for new people.. but hey be there cause there is always something new....NOT)and of course those ever popular "pot lucks" so you could associate with your upline!!! And then there were the tools.... dont get me started on those...... oh OK I will ... we were on SOT and Pacesetter every week ... we had a supply of overnight packs... ad packs..... starter packs(6 tapes and a book to give to new downline so they too could be brainwashed ) .... also the 2nd week pack (too solidify that mind control)....... various "dream building" tapes ( so you could pop one in when you started wiseing up to the "system") ..... The Profiles of Success(every good little distributor had a least 2 of these to show prospects that they too could " GO DIAMOND") ..... a supply of all catalogs( personal shopper, spring and summer, christmas, amagift, great midwestern steak, Zane publishing ---thats a whole other "batch " of tools,RDC, Artistry) and of course when the SOP program was implemented you had to have a supply of SOP sign up forms on hand at $6.00 each and were sold only in packs of 5!!!!! We also were on Amvox at $16.00 a month plus networking charges to send all those great messages to your downline out of town (average for us was $30.00 a month in networking charges) !!!!! You know I was just reading back over this and thinking it is so true that this is a cult we were totally sold out to the "system" we REALLY did believe but like I said when I look back I can understand ......we lived and breathed Amway..... if someone would have layed out these figures to us 6 months ago we would have said"yea so what we're GOING DIAMOND".... "the tires on our coach will cost more than this investment".....And for those of you active Amway distributors out there... we did "run the roads" we were "plugged into the system and our upline" we were showing the plan on average 3 times a week(usually more)... we had a good size downline working only problem was they were not working like we were... but hey we kept building until we could find that "Go-Getter".... we were told to "sponsor up"... to "cold contact" at the malls (guilty... yes that was us skulking around the shoe stores and J.C. Penney's) and at gas stations and at restaurants and grocery stores and school open houses.......Yes we have children 3 of them ... our oldest is 14 so he babysat all the time except on weekends and seminar Saturday's then my Mom did it for us......but hey the kids had to practice long term gratification too cause after all "we're going DIAMOND" and then they could walk the beaches with us!!!! Well I can tell you exactly what made us get the "soap" out of our eyes and wake up from this "nightmare" it was about 3 months ago when we were doing our income tax scheduale C (see TooEthical"s site.. I sent it to him and he is going to post it soon) we had a substancial loss ... when I told a direct about this he said"yea aint it great" I said "NO" and then when I mentioned it to my surrogate sponser (our sponser quit and left the state)he said "yea but you can't put a price on the friendships you have made"....PUKE...... to quote a tape "your friends don't pay your bills"and since we have "quit" they can no longer associate with us because we are "losers" See we were'nt going to quit at first(blast that numbing mind control) we told our upline emeralds that we needed to back away for a while and reorganize ourselves... he amvoxed us 3 days later and said he has never known of people who stop for a while and then start again..... your either in or you are a quitter!!!! Well gee I remember hearing on tapes all the time about people getting out and coming back in sometimes 2 or 3 times.... and we have never been quitters!!!! It's amazing how they can "love you and believe in you " one week and then the next week your a loser!! What a great business huh... such awesome people..... you know if my kids had a teacher that said that to them...tenure or not they would'nt be teaching kids in my school again!!!!!!! Anyway I did'nt mean to go on this long but I want every one to know ....... this is not "Free Enterprise" this is a SCAM plain and simple..... and at first I did not hold the Amway Corp responsible.... after all Internet is a seperate entity.... but the more I have read on all these sites... the more I see that in Amway's own greed they have chosen to put blinders on as to whats going on in the various organizations. And no we are not "whining" or blaming anyone.... we are adults and are responsible for our actions..... no I have no desire to bring on a lawsuit or participate in one..... I just wanted to share our experiences with you all cause I feel the more people who let it be known what's going on the more people will be informed If you post this please do not post our e-mail address just sign us:
Happy to be back in our "comfort zone"