NOTE: These America Online posts from the Religion/HInduism/Siddha Yoga (1) folder are responses to the 2 Open Letters which are archived on the ex-cult Web page (http://ex-cult.org/Groups/SYDA-Yoga/). NOTE FURTHER: The following posts appeared on the AOL SYDA folder from 8/95 to 9/95. The chronology of the posts in this file is not always in correct sequence. This file has been edited and focuses on dissent against SYDA Yoga. It does not include all the posts that appeared originally. However, it does include many of the posts in support of SYDA, along with most of the posts that spoke out against abuse and corruption in SYDA. Subj: Re:About SYDA Yoga Date: 95-08-02 18:35:12 EDT From: Wolfddy Thank you for your open letter regarding SYDA. As a relatively new devotee, I appreciate having as much information as possible, whether it be fact, fiction or faction with repects to the leaders, participants and followers of Muktananda and/or Guru Mayi. And your point is well taken. However.... What I am reminded of is: One: that all forms of human spirituality are just that - human, full of human nature, human fallibility, human ecstasy, human perceptions, human thought/action. Even "realized masters," regardless of their internal/spritual lives, still have to deal with the human body that binds them to this earth, and all that goes with it. She has said herself that as human beings, we have to deal with the temptations/attachments of all five (if not six) or our senses, (which in my experience can get pretty complex rather quickly in the right circumstances). Two: all the misdealings and inappropriate behaviors/actions your members have spelled out don't surprise me. What religious organization is free of such things? What religious organization would readily and freely admit to such things? This too is part of human nature. You can't take the people out of the spiritual practice (it is a practice after all, isn't it?) This is not to say it is right or justifiable (it's not), just that it isn't confined to SYDA. Finally: from what I understand, Baba chose Guru Mayi because he knew she would be able to take Siddha Yoga into the next century and into the Western mind. In my experience, the Western mind is about acquisition, achievement and advancement. As Westerners we're trained to think that if we don't pay dearly for our salvation, it just ain't the real thing. With that in mind, it sounds like she's doing her job. No one is holding a gun to my head to take part in the spiritual life I have discovered through Guru Mayi. No one is forcing me to give all my material goods to the Guru. She affects me completely, yet I am not compelled to think I need to spend a gazillion dollars to gain her grace. In my experience, grace is free and readily given. I am a free-thinking human being who can take what I need, leave the rest and have boundaries around everything in between. My spirituality rests within, and is not dependant on gaining the personal attention of the Guru or her organization. I choose to separate the organization from the spirituality I gain through my experience in/around the ashram and Guru Mayi. Baba said to be vigilant. And that we choose the lives we lead. Choose wisely. With that said, I want to thank you again for your information. I hope it will assist others as it has assisted me. Good luck to you all. om namah shivaya. Subj: Re:About SYDA Yoga Date: 95-08-02 19:57:28 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 2 - Thoughts about the open letter Dear authors of the open letter, I extend to you my sympathies for the abuse you have suffered at the hands of Gurumayi, and congratulate you on having the strength of character to share what you know. I will not insult you by shifting the blame to the organization; rather, I sadly acknowledge with you that it is Gurumayi who is responsible. Based on my decades of observation, I believe every word of what you are saying. You have taken great risks to go against such a dangerous organization. I admit I am not as brave as you. For decades I have had a dynamite sadhana full of all kinds of experiences even though I have been openly critical of Gurumayi (and other problematic guru types). Siddha yogis--you don't need to be afraid that your experiences will stop if you begin to think freely, openly, and critically, about the guru--or about any life matter that is important to you. Also remember: just because you experience a movement of prana--kriyas, visions, bliss--in the ashram or around Gurumayi is no proof that Gurumayi is a spiritual adept. Even a direct experience from Gurumayi--seeing lights around her, dreaming of her, feeling force from her touch or glance--should not be taken as proof of her yogic attainment. Space prevents me from detailing how I know this to be a fact. I will limit myself to saying: please take the time to verify this by looking around at other yogic sites. Kundalini yoga is fascinating, and worthy of our full and open-minded attention. To suddenly take on an entire belief system on the basis of a strong spiritual experience or two is short-sighted and dangerous. SEE PART 2 Subj: Re:About SYDA Yoga Date: 95-08-02 19:58:41 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 OF 2 - Thoughts about the open letter This open letter has given all of us an opportunity to reaffirm our dedication to the marvelous experiences and positive principles of yoga, and to detach yet further from unwanted attitudes and beliefs. I know that many have nourished their fantasies about Gurumayi's qualities to such an extent that they may have no defense but to say to the authors of the open letter: "you are responsible for the bad experiences you have had," or "you are projecting your own inadequacies on to the guru." These defenses are cruel; that is, to blame victims for being victimized is cruel and, worse, allows the abuses to continue. I say to the authors of the open letter "thank you, for caring enough about the welfare of others to take the tremendous risk of informing them of what you know." I do pity Gurumayi, whose ongoing manipulative activities suggest that she herself is an unhappy victim of the insane role that was thrust upon her, and of earlier abuse. "Oldtimers" will know what I mean. I pray that God will help her--and those who believe she is qualified to give them spiritual instruction--find a way out of the pain-giving, symbiotic delusion described in the open letter. And for those who have had a good time "so far" with SYDA--is it ethical for you to be enjoying yourselves off of the sweat and suffering of the abused inner circle of sevites? As Gurumayi often says: "think about it." Subj: The True Guru Date: 95-08-02 21:28:12 EDT From: Charlie 47 Sounds simple to me. God dwells within you as you. See God in each other. What a terrible lesson! What a wonderful lesson! I'm sure that there are still some slow learners out there. Oh well, at least my wheelbarrow isn't full of dirt. With love, Charlie Subj: Re:About SYDA Yoga Date: 95-08-02 22:33:38 EDT From: E2233 Wolfddy says: "One: that all forms of human spirituality are just that - human, full of human nature, human fallibility, human ecstasy, human perceptions, human thought/action. Even "realized masters," regardless of their internal/spritual lives, still have to deal with the human body that binds them to this earth, and all that goes with it. She has said herself that as human beings, we have to deal with the temptations/attachments of all five (if not six) or our senses, (which in my experience can get pretty complex rather quickly in the right circumstances)." I understood from the SYDA literature and scriptures that the Guru is perfect, the Absolute, omniscient, omnipotent, all-pervasive, unborn, eternal, formless, etc. So there seems to be a contradiction here. You say: " As Westerners we're trained to think that if we don't pay dearly for our salvation, it just ain't the real thing. With that in mind, it sounds like she's doing her job." Are we supposed to pay with our integrity, our sanity, our dignity; are we supposed to allow ourselves to be sexually exploited? You can say she's doing her job if her job is supposed to be ripping lots of people off. She's doing a great job of that. Whatever teachings are worthwhile in SYDA are not practiced by its gurus, that is for sure. It's not the teachings that should be shunned, but how, and more importantly, why, do you exonerate these gurus? If your daughter had been molested in the ashram and Gurumayi had told her it was her fault and not to tell anyone, would you exonerate the Guru? Why? You sound courteous but I wonder if you have other feelings, less "spiritual" ones, about the letter? It seems to me that denial and suppression of anger or even hatred also diminishes the capacity to truly love. In my experience, SYDA can reduce you to about as narrow and false a range of emotions as you can get without actually being dead. Think about it. Subj: Re:About SYDA Yoga Date: 95-08-02 20:01:31 EDT From: LD3140 Dear Warrior for the truth, Thank you for your courage and honesty and clarity as expressed in your letter "about Siddha Yoga". People who have not experienced the 'heat' of being close to the inner workings and circle of SYDA and its leader and director and policy maker, Gurumayi are not aware of much of what you revealed and thank you again for doing so. They also don't realize that Gurumayi knows every detail of what goes on and indeed instigates it. There are people who do know about this abusive and dishonest behavior and still deny it. The dependency encouraged by Gurumayi, and Baba before her, continues to rob people of their power of discrimination, i.e. good jugdment. I know this from personal experience as a devotee for many years. It can take a long time to let the truth sink in because of the pain of disillusionment. I also know from personal experience that it is worth the pain for the true autonomy and freedom I have gained. Your work toward the truth as shown in your letter gives me inspiration and hope . Subj: Spiritual Warriors? Date: 95-08-02 22:39:22 EDT From: Ego2go Give Me a Break: I think I missed something here. What's this about spiritual warriors? A true warrior wouldn't hide behind a ficticious screen name. A true warrior would put himself in harms way. This is just more of the same. More gossip courtesy of those with poor discrimination and a terminal case of naivete looking for someone to blame. The Guru is ruthless. The Guru knows no rules. Thank you for the information. It's nothing new. It doesn't surprise me. Now you can look for someone to hug you. You'll feel much better. Om Namah Shivaya Subj: Re:Spiritual Warriors? Date: 95-08-02 22:51:35 EDT From: Ego2go I don't consider myself a spiritual warrior. I am a seeker of truth. I trust my own discrimination. I hurt for you. Not because of what was done but because you carry it with you. I react to ignoranace. I look for my lessons. Thank you for sharing your pain and I wish you God's speed in letting it go. Best wishes in filling your wheelbarrow with God's love. Ganesh Subj: Re:About SYDA Yoga Date: 95-08-02 20:58:28 EDT From: Paulibus Thank you all for the courage of this discussion. I am grateful for the experiences I have had as a result of my involvement wih Siddha Yoga. That will always be with me. Abuse is abuse and is inexcusable no matter what cloak it may wear. It remains true that power corrupts. It is sad that what should be a loving and joyful journey can be so perilous. I have watched some of the other boards in the Hinduism forum with interest about their struggles and have not seen the same degree of angst. God lives in you as you. The self does not change. Egos and deluded minds may go on the rampage, however. I hope we can challenge and encourage each other on the spiritual path. with great love and respect. Subj: Re:About SYDA Yoga - Part 1 of 5 Date: 95-08-02 11:00:15 EDT From: LNG 81 Dear Friend My own experience with Siddha Yoga need not be explained in any way except to say, I have the mantra ,I was blessed with Shatipat, and every day in my life is a gift. I think the most important aspect of the New Yorker article was near the end where the author made the point that a middle class Indian would go listen to a Guru, return home and immediatly divest themselves of 50% of what the Guru said. Middle class Americans buy it hook,line ,and sinker...usually later winding up disappointed. This is not the first Guru busted for sexual activity with the hot white women. What gets me steamed is the trauma that relationships have suffered in the guise of 'spiritual progress'. How did India wind up with 900 million people anyway ? Immaculte conception ? By the way what chased me away from the Ashram was all the strident , invasive,rushing , pushy, devotees and Sevites. Like , Ashram is translated to mean ' place of relieving fatigue'. Well, I wanted that to be my experience, it oftimes wasn' t. I guess I lack 'discrimination'. LOL I support you in what you have the courage to profess. Don t forget, my dear one you still have the mantra--potent , devine and absolutly free. Watching the board with renewed interest. LNG 81 Subj: Re:About SYDA Yoga Date: 95-08-03 17:48:42 EDT From: TheCatmen Dear Friend, Thank you so much for your courage and openness. As an ex-member of the "inner circle" I can confirm your experiences. I really believed all that swill about the Guru saving me. Right! As if Being close to Gurumayi meant being in bliss!!! As you know, we all thought that only the Strong or Special ones could sustain being close to the "fire." I now know that what I thought was being close to Gurumayi, really meant asking her to test me, make me worthy, which translates as "abuse me please." It wasn't fun but it really made me feel important. I, like most of us GAVE her that liberty. I GAVE her my power. And, I trusted her with a very vulnerable thing, my spiritual direction. She is not worthy of that task. Her duplicity and double messages hooked me. Although I believe that the path of change happens from the inside, a part of me wanted someone else to do the work. Gurumayi's message that she would lift Karmas and lead me to the other side made me believe that she would save me. Since I've left I have found that only my own connection to my inner self will save me. And my life is happier and richer than I ever dreamed possible. Mostly because I can FEEL things. When I left, I had to face all the pain and anguish that sent me packing to a spiritual being in the first place. No more mind numbing mantras or seva to keep me occupied. It was my LIFE and CHIOCES before me. Scary. But the true spiritual path. And I' m FINE without Gurumayi. I didn't believe that anything could be better than Siddha Yoga. Like you, I now know that feeling GREAT about MYSELF is BETTER than any seductive meditation or chant. Getting to it is hard work, but my spirit is stronger now and more informed. I feel that there is a different kind of spirituality that is possible when one approaches a path from the place of being healed and MATURE. Mature means facing dissapointment and moving through pain. Thanks again for taking the risk to speak so openly about the truth. You have done a great service. It took me a long time to have the strength to let the truth sink in and leave Siddha Yoga. It was the best thing I ever did. Howie, thanks for your mercilessly honest and perceptive look at this old SYDA standby we all take for granted. You are getting at some deep and important truths that are obfuscated in SYDA in destructive ways. I would like to say this. That some people, even dissenters on this board, are phobic about anger. Everything has to be neutral, serene, at equilibrium, everything has to be said in such a way that everything is everything, nothing is nothing, everything is nothing, and everything cancels out everything else. Anger is a human emotion which has power. People in SYDA are afraid to be angry because they are terrified to claim their own power. They usually enter the place feeling completely powerless. So they give all the power of their love, and all the power of their threatening emotions, to the Guru, who greedily sucks up the devotees' power and uses that power to perpetuate the myth of her own perfection. From my experience and from what others have said here, it is obvious that Gurumayi is a false guru. It is apparent in the blind, deaf and dumb denial of her devotees, and their willingness to block out any information that might disturb their own selfish piece of the bliss pie. I recommend a really wonderful book by Steve Hassan, entitled "Combatting Cult Mind Control". Hassan is a very spiritual person, involved in a Buddhist path, who is a leading expert on cults. Subj: Back to the point Date: 95-08-03 01:34:01 EDT From: Dissent670 Ego2go, your post is a wonderful example of SYDA brainwash yogaspeak. Please don't take that personally - you are far from alone. Brainwash is happening at SYDA. Let's look at it. I look at your latest post and every line is "spiritually correct". Nobody can really object to it, and you come off smelling like a rose from Gurumayi's garden - yet you are not saying anything. Has anyone noticed how increasingly difficult it is becoming in SY to relate to one another straightforwardly, uninhibitedly, spontaneiously, plain-speaking, without pablum descending from above? We are blinding ourselves with this kind of talk, numbing our wills - and lo and behold, it is the kind of talk Gurumayi encourages. It shuts people out. I know because I encounter and feel it again and again in this folder and in SYDA ashrams. Ego2go, you have a point questioning my choice of anonymity. Experience has demonstrated that emotional maturity does not foster well in foolhardiness. Because I know that SYDA is not above retributions, I choose, as the authors of the open letter wisely did, to exercise my free speech under cover. The disclosure of repressed information, and open discussion of SYDA abuses AND OUR COMPLICITY IN THEM is more important than identities at this time, in my judgement. Those wishing to distract and detract from the message will predictably disagree. There are many many cross-currents operating under the guise of spiritual correctness which bear scrutiny, and none of us knows the scope of suffering beneath the spiritual facades. The open letter hinted at it, and I believe these investigations are vital unless we think Siddhaloka is populated with denial-loving sycophants. The question remains: why is Gurumayi perpetuating a lie about her own perfection? Subj: Re:Open Letter Date: 95-08-03 08:21:01 EDT From: Marvin26 Many thanks to the authors of the Open Letter to SYDA Yoga. While I find this information disturbing, I also am grateful. I have practiced S.Y. for about 4 years. I didn't even know that Gurumayi even had a brother until I had been involved for about 2 years! I read athe New Yorker article when it came out last year and was troubled then.That uneasiness continued and I have been in the process of de-Sidda-ing (?) myself for the past 3 months. My relationship with my partner is better and I am feeling happier as time goes on. In the past I have done an incredible amount of seva but it seemed that more was always asked. As a person living with AIDS I finally had to start saying "no" to the seva "opportunities"offered to me. It just became too much. During one of my visits to S.F. I was told that because of my HIV infection I had to stay in a room alone. They said that it was for my protection."Ashrams are breeding grounds for all kinds of things" and that they felt it would be better for my health to not be exposed to other people in a non-private room. I was not allowed to serve food--even though it is known that HIV is not transmitted through casual contact. If I was concerned about catching something why would I even go to a place with several thousand people? The bottom line is that they do discriminate against certain groups of people. If they were truly concerned about me why was I put in Sadhana Kutir--the farthest building away from where all the programs were. Staying on the fourth floor in the back in the corner did not help me, it forced me to climb several flights of stairs daily. Trying to get to programs meant I had to get up very early in order to get from Sadhana Frontier to the Main Building. Could'nt thay have isolated me in a room at the Main Building? That would have made for a much better stay. Forgive my ramblings--it's just that my disillusionment has been so profound and so painful for me. I feel for those who have suffered at the hands of "the powers that be" and for those who allowed themselves to be used and looked the other way. Good luck to all and remember that God lives in each of our hearts and to look inside for peace and fufillment. Thank you. Subj: Baba said Date: 95-08-03 03:52:34 EDT From: Sharva Love your messages, spv one billion. Just hang in there and don't go crazy. You may be enlightened but there are things you still don't know. Don't want to betray my identity, 'cause I have a very good memory of many things 'Baba said'. It is very much weighing on my mind too, that the . S. fallsburg ashram houses the archives of Baba's teaching tours. I truly miss him, as I know does Charlie 47. For me there was always a big difference between Baba and Guru Mayi. When she first became Guru I couldn't believe the stuff coming out of her mouth. Things Baba would never say, at least in public. I never saw him in private much so I can't vouch for that. I have not much to say about Nityananda Mahamadeleshswar. At least the priests had the sense to pick someone, for the successorship of the Shankaracharya lineage, who has Shaktipat. Previous poster was correct that one Shaktipat/direct experience is worth a trillion Mahamadeleshwar titles. Anyway, it a good title and I'm happy for him. He did say in reference to Guru Mayi, not in public mind you, and while doing the dishes (something I was quietly but firmly assured GM would never do)---which I believe after hearing it first hand (from her), the story of barely taking three days of, (heaven forbid!), vegetable chopping. I never did understand how she could get all these people to do Seva for her. Seva she would, by her own admission, never deign to do herself. Baba at least had the sense to profess publically that no job would be something he would not do. Maybe he said different in private, like I said , don't know What *got* me about her was her total lack of *self-conscousness* about saying in public, at least at the beginning, and before people later,) things that absolutely did not float as words of a Guru. Nobody seemed to notice. That was the bizarre thing. She didn't fit the picture of at least what we were taught from Baba, was a Guru. (No matter what anyone says about the freedom of the Guru to do anything). Anyone who says they are the same *person* need only get ahold of a complete transcript of a few of B.'s talks--if you can! Anyway Nityananda said, shyly, the bit about the spoon and the soup. This was in regard of GM being Baba's translator. I agree with him but will add he has pictures of his sister at his place and really discourages anyone from saying negative things about her. Also, until you visit there you cannot understand the level of the personal attack done to him. By people who one day professed to love him as God on Earth to becoming the most reviled disgusting specimen of revulsion. I didn't understand it on a feeling level, didn't take it seriously, until I visited his place. He did basically get rid of me, thinking I was a 'spy' for GM. I told him if I needed a Guru to treat me like dirt I could go to GM and didn't need him for that. Anyway, what Baba said was.tha... if you really knew the truth, if you really knew exactly the truth, if it was all told to you straight out, the real truth of what goes on in this world, of all the things that are and happen, you would cry. If you really knew what was the real truth, you would cry for a long time. Charlie 47 remembers Baba. Maybe it was just an image but Liz H. did say to me that none of the women, and she spoke to a lot according to her, complained. She said every woman she spoke to spoke positively of their experience with B. No complaints. Many women I know who knew B. have said, "Why not me?" In regard to George. He gave heavy duty bedroom eyes on several occasions to someone very dear to me. Also, in front of GM. It's unknown how he got away with it, but was quite startling to the 'naive'. I hope I don't get caught saying this. They may get the bad karma, but what about me, I'll be dead. The best to those who wrote the 5 page letter. It really cleared my head and increased my estimation of IQ for SYDA-ites. Doesn't it feel good? Isn't the Shakti strong, *out of there*? Subj: Re:Baba said Date: 95-08-03 07:21:24 EDT From: E2233 Lis Harris clearly reports that numerous women were traumatized by their sexual experience with Baba, not that all of them liked it. I know of one woman who left the ashram in Ganeshpuri, after Baba had sex with her. He had placed her on his table, and after he was finished, indicated he wanted oral sex. She could not do it. He gave her money and told her to buy a new sari. He said "come back tomorrow, but don't wear underwear." She tried to talk about it with others, but no one in the ashram would listen to her. They told her she was sick. She left, and had a complete nervous breakdown and was hospitalized. She's OK now, but still suffers effects of post traumatic stress. You may not believe this. Hey, no one in Germany beleived there were death camps. If only they had beleived. Those who are the truly frightened ones, the really terrified ones, are not the ones with anonymous IDs; they are the ones who refuse to believe. Subj: E2233 Date: 95-08-03 09:50:09 EDT From: Sharva Maybe you and I didn't read the same article. The fact that you say LH 'clearly states' in her article that women were traumatized, makes me doubt the rest of your posting. She clearly doesn't state that, either in the article or to me personally, when she told me that no woman who she spoke to complained and all spoke highy of their experience and were happy with it. Basically it an amusing twist on the usual sex abuse story. Many women were happy with what happened. Many women, the testimony in the article was cut from a longer piece, had ecstatic shaktipat experience. And why shouldn't they? There's nothing intrinsicallly wrong with sex. Maybe LH doesn't know the woman you refer to. I'm not saying it didn't hurt *any* woman or girl, 'cause I just don't know. Also, the people I saw it hurt, in the largest part, would have to be the disillusioned devotees.( cf. Charlie 47 (what do you think Charlie?) and many many others.) It messed up many peoples' heads. Why it didn't mess up mine, I don't know. Maybe one, I don't really think sex is bad. Two, nothing could balance the positive I received from B. Nothing. Amazing, I'm still skating on it. Still think of it in my heart, every day. Still thank him. B. gave me life as I know it today, gave me *everything*, as the saying goes. Everything I enjoy so much today is only from him. Finally, 'Baba said', "The Guru destroys your illusions." He destroyed my illusions about himself and SYDA. Without the sex revealment I'd still be seriously plugged in there. It doesn't effect my respect for the teachings (except the ones regarding sexuality and the infallibility of the Guru---remember 'B said', the Guru is not a person, one is deluded if one thinks the Guru is a person. The Guru is a position. The real Guru is God and one shouldn't confuse *that* with an individual person), nor does it effect what I have ultimately gained. Sorry for my lack of compassion for the 'victims'. It's hard for me to feel compassion for those *harmed*. One can't feel compassion for everything, nor lie about it and pretend. Neither do I feel betrayed. Neither do I feel that I have anything but gained, in my relationship to Baba. What B gave me's gonna last this whole lifetime and also, hopefully, give me a good send off. Sorry to those who would want to paint a completely negative picture. Check out the newsgroup *alt.support.ex-cult*, if you get USENET. There was, at least one, really interesting post "If God didn't want 'em sheered, he wouldn't have made 'em sheep". Subj: Wolf quote at end Date: 95-08-03 09:53:50 EDT From: Sharva There was a mistake on the last post. It was suppose to read, "If God didn't want them sheared, he wouldn't have made them sheep" ---anon. (possibly the Wolf) Subj: Re:Wolf quote at end Date: 95-08-03 11:42:58 EDT From: Greg401 That is one of the sickest things I've ever heard (not including SPV's ramblings). Does that translate to: "If God didn't want them to be raped, he wouldn't have made them beautiful young women?" Is that how you meant this metaphor? I too know women who were emotionally scarred and are still in pain over the sexual incidents that happened to them in the Ashram. Just because a child may enjoy the sexual feelings and attentions while being molested, does not in any way make the molestation right. Subj: What I Worship Date: 95-08-03 12:14:54 EDT From: Charlie 47 Thank you for your post, Sharva. It seems as though we are on the same wave legnth. I received an e-mail message from E2233 yesterday. It said, in part: If, when you say, darn that Baba, you are referring to me, the one who posted the anonymous letter about SYDA Yoga, please note: I do not wish to be in any way identified with Baba Muktananda because he was a ........... (He goes on to describe "his Baba's" perceived negativities in no uncertain terms.) My reply, in part, was as follows... Dear Whoever you are: When I refer to Baba I am speaking of the witness of the mind who is without attribute yet encompasses all form. I am speaking of your heart as well as mine. I do not worship the personality of the Guru any more than I worship the path. I appreciate your letter. I experienced mixed emotions when I read it and I am contemplating my lessons. Again, my Baba is in my heart. My Guru is in my heart. I look to my heart for both direction and approval. I would like to add something that wasn't in my reply to E2233.. To those of you that have read my previous posts it must be apparent that I love Muktananda. My experience of Siddha Yoga was a positive one. Actually is was priceless. I feel that I owe my life to Muktananda. I am very much aware of the negative experiences some other people have had. None of this is truly new to me. There are always new details of abuse but it doesn't change my personal experience. I presently spend some time at Amma's Ashram in San Ramon. She touched my heart and I'm learning some lessons. I have also started spending more time at the Oakland Ashram after an absence of about four years. I have no desire to spend time in the presence of the "physical Guru". The challenge for me is to see God in you. Baba taught me to accept. It's called unconditional love. I have to work at it constantly. It isn't easy. No one said it would be. All my relationships are getting sweeter and sweeter. I see the Guru's influence touching every aspect of my life. Baba has made my life so full! Thank you Baba! Hail the True Guru! The Guru that dwells in the hearts of all. With love, Charlie Subj: Re:E2233 Date: 95-08-03 12:41:24 EDT From: Wolfddy Hi there: Yes, I sound courteous and certainly act courteous in my day to day life. No, I'm not angry. I really liked your letter. Its generated great discussion on this board and I'm sure among followers and ex-followers of Gurumayi. I'm flattered you would quote me. But I'm afraid you missed my point: all those who participated or continue to participate in ashram life are there by choice, they are not indentured servants, nor slaves, to the guru. Its a personal thang. We've all chosen to be there in some manner or another. And by the way, the Guru is everything you say, the"Guru" being that pure heart/soul within us, that I get to experience every so often. Keeps me meditating. I'm with the India natives: take all teachings with a grain of salt and live your life to its utmost. Om namah shivaya. Subj: Re: About SYDA - to ego2ego Date: 95-08-03 16:49:40 EDT From: HenryD7890 Ego2ego has responded to the open letter in a way that shows his unfailing devotion to his gurus. Unfortunately, when he says "Thank you for the information. It's nothing new. It doesn't surprise me. Now you can look for someone to hug you. You'll feel much better, " he demonstrates a very callous attitude with astonishing disregard for the pain caused by syda gurus -and no interest in accountability - "The Guru is ruthless. The Guru knows no rules." To me this says that you must have very little compassion for your self, that perhaps your devotion to a false, cruel and despotic guru helps hide your self-hatred and low self-esteem by filling you with vicarious grandiosity. Sorry for the big words, but that's how it looks to me. Subj: Re:Open Letter - to Marvin26 Date: 95-08-03 21:09:51 EDT From: HenryD7890 Marvin, the way you were treated in the ashram is not welcoming - it's a disgrace. I am very sorry you experienced this, and I have no doubt that the dutiful accomodations wallahs were "only following orders." Thank you for letting us know of this disgraceful mistreatment. As painful as it is, you are lucky to be free of the hypocrisy of siddha yoga. Subj: Am I Perfect? Date: 95-08-03 21:14:07 EDT From: Ego2go Thank you for the criticism. I have many sides to my personality. I am not always proud of what I think or post. I have a habit of recognizing when I'm wrong. I'm wrong when I feel anger. Thanks again for your comments. I have choosen again to focus on my heart. I sincerely hope, for your sake, that you're not so quick to judge your Guru. GANESH Subj: Re:"Open Letter" PART 1/5 Date: 95-08-04 00:13:52 EDT From: Yateendra COMMENTS ON "AN OPEN LETTER," PART ONE Dear Friends: Bravo on all the brilliant "sva-vichaara" (self-inquiry) expressed on the recent "Open Letter!" I joined AOL in order to explore the message board of Mother Meera and found (not unexpectedly) a message board for my beloved Siddha Yoga. I still feel that it's "beloved," even though I'm one of the "abused" sevites mentioned in the five part "Open Letter On Siddha Yoga" which appeared yesterday. When I emerged from seven years of service in South Fallsburg, my faith in aspects of Siddha Yoga was shaken, but I've never doubted the benevolence of God and that "all things work together for good" to them that love Him (Rom 8:28). My experiences since then have shown that my interpretation of the teachings was not conducive to personal harmony. I feel that the "angle" or paradigm in which some teachings are presented is limiting, and can interact with the patterns of pettiness and tendencies toward guilt present in many of our minds, compounding the wrong understanding. But the love which I learned there through conscious effort must be real, because it hasn't turned to bitterness upon hearing the shocking news. My period of intense Siddha Yoga activity began in Ganeshpuri before and during period of Muktananda's Mahasamadhi and the succession, continuing in South Fallsburg until my dad passed away in June, 1990, and my family, observing my emaciated condition, requested that I return home. Latent self-destructive tendencies had gradually manifested during my ashram stay, bringing with them an eating disorder, guilt-driven asceticism and increased lack of self-esteem. I was physically run-down and constantly struggling with depression. I had had some premonition of this in 1977 through an Indian Security guard at my music school, who had been sent to New York by his Guru. He'd discerned my "confusion" and "destructive" tendencies and had commented, "it doesn't matter where you go" I'm grateful that the foundation of understanding and positive experiences prior to and during my Siddha Yoga service has been firm enough to sustain me in my search for spiritual solutions. I reacquainted myself with Christian Science, a system of spiritual healing through self-inquiry. The comparative study of this system has brought a broader perspective to my gleanings from SY--through this I've gradually gained in health and mental stability--heart and mind feel ahead of where I started, though body and regularity of appetite lag behind. I find in Science an independently derived, self- consistent echoing of certain lines of Eastern thought, but too circumscribed for my sole adherence. I'm currently searching in the works of Sri Aurobindo for the synthesis of my understanding to this point. My experiences have led me to reaffirm that (1) learning love is the most important purpose of human life and still the number one value in my life, and that (2) one needs to become sensitive to his/her own tendencies in feeling, thought and action, and see that these remain harmonious with each other and with God (Love). My tendency to swallow the Siddha Yoga teachings "hook, line and sinker" led to a serious loss of personal balance. I have gained insight through knowledge of Ayurveda that my subconscious feeling of unworthiness to live in the ashram (and fear of being booted out for the slightest breach of discipline) aggravated the prominent _vaata_ aspect of my constitution. PLEASE SEE PART TWO Subj: Re:"Open Letter" PART 1/5 Date: 95-08-04 00:13:52 EDT From: Yateendra COMMENTS ON "AN OPEN LETTER," PART ONE Dear Friends: Bravo on all the brilliant "sva-vichaara" (self-inquiry) expressed on the recent "Open Letter!" I joined AOL in order to explore the message board of Mother Meera and found (not unexpectedly) a message board for my beloved Siddha Yoga. I still feel that it's "beloved," even though I'm one of the "abused" sevites mentioned in the five part "Open Letter On Siddha Yoga" which appeared yesterday. When I emerged from seven years of service in South Fallsburg, my faith in aspects of Siddha Yoga was shaken, but I've never doubted the benevolence of God and that "all things work together for good" to them that love Him (Rom 8:28). My experiences since then have shown that my interpretation of the teachings was not conducive to personal harmony. I feel that the "angle" or paradigm in which some teachings are presented is limiting, and can interact with the patterns of pettiness and tendencies toward guilt present in many of our minds, compounding the wrong understanding. But the love which I learned there through conscious effort must be real, because it hasn't turned to bitterness upon hearing the shocking news. My period of intense Siddha Yoga activity began in Ganeshpuri before and during period of Muktananda's Mahasamadhi and the succession, continuing in South Fallsburg until my dad passed away in June, 1990, and my family, observing my emaciated condition, requested that I return home. Latent self-destructive tendencies had gradually manifested during my ashram stay, bringing with them an eating disorder, guilt-driven asceticism and increased lack of self-esteem. I was physically run-down and constantly struggling with depression. I had had some premonition of this in 1977 through an Indian Security guard at my music school, who had been sent to New York by his Guru. He'd discerned my "confusion" and "destructive" tendencies and had commented, "it doesn't matter where you go" I'm grateful that the foundation of understanding and positive experiences prior to and during my Siddha Yoga service has been firm enough to sustain me in my search for spiritual solutions. I reacquainted myself with Christian Science, a system of spiritual healing through self-inquiry. The comparative study of this system has brought a broader perspective to my gleanings from SY--through this I've gradually gained in health and mental stability--heart and mind feel ahead of where I started, though body and regularity of appetite lag behind. I find in Science an independently derived, self- consistent echoing of certain lines of Eastern thought, but too circumscribed for my sole adherence. I'm currently searching in the works of Sri Aurobindo for the synthesis of my understanding to this point. My experiences have led me to reaffirm that (1) learning love is the most important purpose of human life and still the number one value in my life, and that (2) one needs to become sensitive to his/her own tendencies in feeling, thought and action, and see that these remain harmonious with each other and with God (Love). My tendency to swallow the Siddha Yoga teachings "hook, line and sinker" led to a serious loss of personal balance. I have gained insight through knowledge of Ayurveda that my subconscious feeling of unworthiness to live in the ashram (and fear of being booted out for the slightest breach of discipline) aggravated the prominent _vaata_ aspect of my constitution. PLEASE SEE PART TWO Subj: Re:"Open Letter" PART 2/5 Date: 95-08-04 00:14:45 EDT From: Yateendra COMMENTS ON "AN OPEN LETTER," PART TWO It's becoming evident that the personal sadhana experiences of gurus enter into their teachings. (I had previously thought that these teachings were "divine" and able to be imbibed without careful scrutiny on the part of the student). Through comparison with other systems, I've discovered that the Siddha Yoga teachings (as I've experienced them--mainly through Gurumayi) have some "rough edges" which, taken at face value, don't harmonize with my inner being. In spite of the valid argument that different teachings reach different people, I think it's wise for Siddha students to examine the effect of certain teachings on their outlook, in light of recent revelations. Until yesterday, I largely identified Siddha Yoga as my primary "path"--the popular virtue of loyalty to a path having been firmly entrenched in my mind. However, when I read the "Open Letter"--which brings out serious breaches of ethics by the organization with the knowledge and apparent approval of Gurumayi--the ambient of which I had been subconsciously aware during my Siddha studenthood came fully to light. The Letter refers to an article by Lis Harris (New Yorker_ magazine, November 14, 1994) which provides information essential to a fuller view (I encourage readers of this message board to borrow a copy from their local library). The offense with which I identified most clearly was the continuing lack of respect and love expressed toward Swami Nityananda (the former co-successor of Siddha Yoga) by functionaries of Gurumayi. I had been uneasy about the attempt to expunge all memories of Nityananda from Siddha Yoga as lacking in honesty and ability to face the truth with intellectual maturity--reminiscent even of films of Nazi book-burning I had viewed in High School History Class! My interest in truth precludes me from instant rejection of Siddha Yoga and its teachers. In the _New Yorker_ description of Muktananda's sexual activities, only the position of the bodies seemed to have anything in common with conventional human intercourse--I can't automatically condemn what I don't understand. However, Gurumayi's double standard--her violently condemning her brother Nityananda's sexual escapades while passively condoning those of her assistant, George Afif--feels wrong. SEE PART THREE Subj: Re:"Open Letter" PART 3/5 Date: 95-08-04 00:15:32 EDT From: Yateendra COMMENTS ON "AN OPEN LETTER," PART THREE What appears necessary to healing this situation is the full invocation of mind and heart--a clear facing of the violations of dharma and a resurgence of compassion and understanding--between the parties involved (including all who have "staked their hearts" in Siddha Yoga). The outer resolution will depend largely on the willingness of individuals to use their God-given intellects and love and pray for more grace. God has always responded to the prayers of sincere seekers, regardless of the rising and falling fortunes of the communities with which they identify. I feel that I and my fellow sadhakas can rely on this for their individual healing. The community which results from this individual healing, regardless of the form (or lack of form) it takes, can only be an improvement. Clarity is very important. Love without clarity cannot flower--it smothers itself. It was a lack of clarity which allowed these transgressions to occur. Certain elements in the philosophy of Siddha Yoga can obscure clarity. I say "obscure," not "destroy," because, the truth is very rich and complex, including the creative coexistence of opposite values. I would contemplate deeply before disposing of the Siddha philosophy, based as it is on the ancient Indian tradition, but the scope and applicability of a given precept must be discovered individually. Each person must achieve a balance of understanding in their own being, tailored to their own nature and experience, which is arrived at through self-effort and grace. There are many ways to react to the issues raised in the "Open Letter." Each person will feel a wide-range of reactions, only a few of which he may express outwardly (as on the message board). There may be a tendency to want to simply affix a label (such as "cult") to Siddha Yoga and run. But we must remember that our attraction to Siddha Yoga reflects our own mental tendencies, which will remain with us until we scrutinize them carefully. I'm wary of the strong emotional connotations in the word "cult."--it's wise to explore its intellectual denotation. Discussing "Government," the Grollier Multimedia Encyclopedia, Rel. 6 states that in a "cult of personality . . . [t]he leader is credited with almost infallible wisdom, because to admit that he or she may be wrong would deprive the regime of its authority" I'll admit that seems a pretty accurate depiction of the Guru in Siddha Yoga, and I have sought such an authority to lead me to God. This doesn't dishearten me from my divine yearnings. The fallacy was thinking I could stop being vigilant--critical and intellectually sifting the content of the guru's talks, etc.--that I could just chant, meditate and do seva, and I would magically arrive at enlightenment. But I've discovered that (for me at least) it requires active self-inquiry to integrate heart, mind and experience into one comprehensible whole of knowledge (to feel comfortable about it, think peacefully about it, and act confidently on its basis). This is true whether or not the guru's teachings are pure (the world is also our guru). I have to make an active effort to reconcile the guru's communications with my innate spiritual intuition and understanding. And that which can't be reconciled needs to be rejected and/or "put on the back burner" for further thought. I also resist blanket dismissal of gurudom (or even "cultism," as defined above) because there have been and are saints and teachers who have lived there lives with dignity and love, and have consistently uplifted their students and the world in general (and have made mistakes and corrected them). PLEASE SEE PART FOUR Subj: Re:"Open Letter" PART 4/5 Date: 95-08-04 00:16:15 EDT From: Yateendra COMMENTS ON "AN OPEN LETTER," PART FOUR And I don't feel we need to give up on Gurumayi, either. The _New Yorker_ article stated that Swami Nityananda regained his celibacy and was considered qualified for re-initiation into _sannyasa_ (monkhood) by the Mahamandaleshwar (a "bishop" of the Saraswati order of the Shankaracharya tradition). Messages on this board, (citing _Hinduism Today_ August 1995) report that Nityananda has himself been elected to the post of Mahamandaleshwar (the same post which conferred sannyasa on Gurumayi and SYDA monks). This election reflects the faith of an Indian ecclesiastical authority not only in the genuineness of Swami Nityananda's reform, but in the integrity his master, Baba Muktananda. If the Guru's "son" can return from error, so can the "daughter." Another tendency is to dismiss recent disclosures with the phrase, "No big deal, I knew it all before . . ." It's true that we live in Kali Yuga, the most adharmic (unrighteous) of the four ages of creation. But to accept disharmony with the dharma (the divine Law of Love) as the norm is to fail to rise from the equilibrium state of ignorance--tantamount to spiritual death. Another tendency is to say, "there goes the shakti with its divine sport again." The concept of the universe as God's play, unconfined by the limits of human expectations or standards of propriety, is freeing and valid, but it can also be an excuse for human irresponsibility and intellectual laziness, not wanting to probe to the bottom of uncomfortable issues. We cannot rely on a repertory of pat answers to complex and vital questions. God has given us the intellects and hearts to do the work, and ourselves and our community will be the beneficiaries. Another tendency would be to put oneself into the position of victim. The disadvantage of the "victim" role is that it gives others control of our destiny. It's important to realize that we, and not other people, form the body of our attitudes, feelings and motivations, which to a great extent determine our outer body and environment, our actions and their results. Maintain self-effort, "grinding one's teeth" (Concise Yoga Vasishtha) and you will win. I'll close with a passage from the Vedas which expresses for me a heartfelt aspect of the cure. Though my mind doesn't understand what the heart grasps in this passage, I offer a scientific analogy. On the frontiers of modern physics, scientists have begun to model the universe after a hologram--each element or particle contains the pattern of the whole. In the dawn of Cosmic Consciousness, one has the experience of the universe existing inside oneself. It can be understood that all the players in this drama--Baba, Gurumayi, the SYDA functionaries, Nityananda, fellow sadhakas--have an essential existence within me also. PLEASE SEE PART FIVE Subj: Re:"Open Letter" PART 5/5 Date: 95-08-04 00:17:16 EDT From: Yateendra COMMENTS ON "AN OPEN LETTER," PART FIVE While condemning the wrongdoing, we must not so estrange ourselves from the true beings of the wrongdoers that we are estranged from ourselves. The functions of clear discrimination (analysis) and love (synthesis) must coexist in a strong creative synergy. At this time, when the dominant tendency is to divide, we must maintain in balance the unifying principle, love. The passage is familiar to devotees as part of the "Introductory Mantras" chanted before programs (the translation is from _The Nectar of Chanting_ (SYDA, 1983). I hope many of you can continue to cherish these ideas as your mantra: Om saha naavavatu Sahanaubhunaktu Sahaveeryam karavaavahai Tejasvinaavadheetam-astu Maa vidvishaa vahai Om. May we, Guru and disciple, be protected together. May we enjoy the fruits of our actions together. May we achieve strength together. May our knowledge be full of light. May we never have enmity for one another. The Sanskrit root "dvi" in "vidvishaa" (enmity, hate) means "two." The Rishi said, "Fear is born of duality," and the Evangelist said (I John 4:18), " There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: . . . ." That "perfect love" is God. And His grace is ever near us. God Bless you all. P.S.: Pardon my verbosity--I wasn't attempting to imitate the five part "Open Letter," I just wanted to "think myself out" which took me my whole day off! ---Cheers! [FINIS] Subj: Not fleeced yet Date: 95-08-04 02:31:57 EDT From: Ugra Sorry about "wolf quote" at the end. Sorry that it was not clear. But look who has the sick minds. Was not refering to Baba's behavior with women. If you would have read my post carefully, instead of READING WHAT WAS NOT THERE AND WAS NOT WRITTEN THERE, you would g-e-t i-t. I do not believe Baba preyed upon little girls. The sheep referred to are people who are betrayed. As I said in the post, I do not feel myself as one betrayed, IN THE LEAST. Perhaps it was because I actually practice and practiced the teachings and inbibe them. Perhaps it is because I keep my eyes open. ( I refrain from taking the relevant statements from Baba, but believe me, they are there.) Also I received an awakened Kundalini, which is the greatest gift in the world. LET ME SPELL IT OUT FOLKS. One is not betrayed in such a case. Perfect example: Yateendra. I know him (sorry, Ugra's a fake name, Yateendra). He had nothing to do with Ashram hierarchy. He did not have a glamourous or important job---took care of the dining hall year in and year out. Guess what, he was practicing the teaching. Was ignored. Guess what. He seems to have attained something and does not feel bitter. His posting is inspired. If you attain God's grace you don't get burned. You may 'burn' a bit, but it only increases your radiance and glow. If you really sincerely practice it, you can't get burned OR fleeced, that's it's nature, that's part of the point of it! Seek, and you shall find. Knock, and the door shall be open unto you. Subj: Re:Wolf quote at end Date: 95-08-04 07:40:09 EDT From: E2233 Greg401, thank you for responding to Sharva. If one of the outcomes of Sharva's sexual experience with Muktananda is that she could make a statement like that, that these women he abused must have been asking for it, then my guess is that Sharva herself has suffered enormously from this abuse. Baba used his status as a living deity, as the alpha and omega of divine authority, to seduce, harass and molest girls as young as 10 years old. Afif's youngest victim that we know of was 13. That Syda devotees can justify this, trivialize or dismiss it is the ultimate proof of Syda's power to corrupt and destroy the integrity of others. What I called Baba in my letter to Charlie47 was: a sexual abuser and child molester. I don't need to substitute __________ for those words. There are intelligent, sincere people on this message board who have not spoken out. What do you have to say? PS - for those who use the internet, the alt.support.ex-cult and the alt.meditation newsgroups are also carrying a lively debate about syda. Subj: pre-judgement Date: 95-08-04 19:34:50 EDT From: Ugra Dear E2233, You have no idea for who or for what I feel compassion. You accuse me of callousness without even knowing what I do in life. It's very strange. You actually do a dis-service to the cause you try to promote. And I did read the entries in the Alt. support.ex-cult. When you accuse people of things you don't even know about, and sort of appear to be whipping up outrage, but sometimes not getting your facts straight or but sometimes jumping to conclusions, you lead people to discredit everything you you say, even if a lot of it is true. Your over-zealousness really works against you. You seem to be a meditator (I assume because you're on this board), but somehow your mind doesn't seem to distinguish between what you really know and what you don't know. Thanks for the apology, but you did it again. What makes you think I belong to the Siddha Yoga hierarchy, represent them, am defending them, belong there or anything. If you really knew what they were about you'd know none of those people would be saying the stuff I say. *They* certainly know I don't belong with them. At least I think. Anyway, I'm not one of them. Am I suppose to apologize because I don't feel terrible and destroyed for giving a large part of my life in years to Siddha Yoga. Do I have to, to avoid judgement from you, feel terrible for what happened to "the other people" as if I had not been, in the past, traveling in the same boat. Your right, I am happy I was smart enough to get out. If you call that smug so be it. I'd rather be smug than a victim. Am I suppose to be ashamed because I'm not hurt by it? What good does it do, by the way, for me to feel it has ruined my life? Why do you seem to try to manipulate me to feel terrible about something I just don't feel terrible about. I feel terrible about other things. Things I can do something about and things I can't. I don't know why I feel terrible about some things and not about others. At least Baba delivered the goods teaching-wise when he was alive. He brought the tradition to us. The teachings themselves are a treasure house of accumulated knowledge. I'm sorry the transmission was off. But he did deliver, no doubt about it. I'm sort of sure that I must feel very bad about many things that you do not. I'm fairly certain but I could be wrong. I'm definitely not jumping to any conclusions. Don't enough people feel bad about this already. I don't know. Why do you insist on trying to add one more. If someone feels OK can't you just leave it alone. Enough already. If I videotape myself banging my head against the wall will that satisfy you. Sometimes I do feel guilty for being so happy. But it's absurd. What am I suppose to do? Self-torture myself to allieviate the guilt? I don't hurt people. Why should I suffer? Those who do hurt others don't seem to have a bothered conscious. Why should I? That's what I thought we were trying to get over. Blackmailing people through guilt. Also SPV10, I really like you and your messages. Why do you also assume I represent Siddha Yoga? I'm confused. Considering what you say about Siddha Yoga I was puzzled when you seemed to say you wanted to get back in there. Believe me I'm not the one to do it. But I'm just confused. Why would you want to? Whoever is OldTimer36, thank you for the message. Subj: Truth or Consequences Date: 95-08-04 20:54:47 EDT From: Bhav **Discern between what is true and what is the truth. ** When I first heard the guru,by way of video,( that technological evil?) what struck me, besides what was being said, which I barely heard, was the almost shocking truth of it. It wasn't an intellectual understanding of the words or the philosophy being stated, it was like looking at (into?) a painting and being struck with visual delight by the beauty that was there; or a great piece of music stirring the emotions (as the sound enters into our organism). It's not the pigment or the notes or the composition of each, it's the truth that is being conveyed ( the entering in). In this way I think that what "Our Nemesis" has is the ability "siddah?" to project an expression of truth regardless of what is being said. It's nice that what is being said can be viewed as uplifting but I don't think the fundamental experience would be different if another philosophy were being represented. It's only when the philosophy strays markedly from our own individual beliefs that we might begin to call into question our allegiance and/or devotion. I could give examples but my philosphical bent would in some only raise argument. Is it a tradition or a business? The incorporation of SiddhaYoga into SYDA has created a buffer between all involved parties. If Nityananda has been appointed the head of the lineage by the legitimate authorities then is it Chidvilasananda's Dharma to step down from the seat? It appears that Nityananda has the spiritual authority while Chidvilasananda has the temporal authority. Which is greater? Can it be ignored? What will be the consequences if it is ignored? Has SiddhaYoga been cut loose with those in the outer circles being unaware. Look for an update from the seat, it is sure to come. Let's hope that it is not more denial. It's time for some healing. Om Tat Sat. Subj: False Gurus Date: 95-08-04 21:48:00 EDT From: Paulibus Baba said there are false gurus bacause there are false disciples. Perhaps he was saying more than he knew or intended. If we make excuses or rationalize abuse in any form then we have become false disciples and will continue to creat false gurus only too happy to victimize us. I treasure the gifts I received from Siddha Yoga, confronting truth will never invalidate them. I think it is time to stop blaming victims, ourselves and each other and honestly confront the situation without petty sqaubbles. It would be more useful to support each other in the search for meaning in these events. Where do we go from here?. My sadhana continues maybe in a different direction. Certainly with much prayer and meditation. I am interested in how all of you are integrating all of this.. Subj: To Paulibus Date: 95-08-05 11:10:06 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear Paulibus, You say, "I treasure the gifts I received from Siddha Yoga, confronting truth will never invalidate them. I think it is time to stop blaming victims, ourselves and each other and honestly confront the situation without petty sqaubbles. It would be more useful to support each other in the search for meaning in these events. Where do we go from here?" Thank you--beatifully said. "Where do we go from here?" To me, the yoga, the miraculous experiences, and the profound precepts seem all the more worthy of investigation when one learns of the problems. If the guru is accepted as "perfect," the experiences can be understood simplistically via the conceptual system that is taught. All answers are "known," so to speak. But if the guru is recognized as problematic, wonderful mysteries and challenges face each of us! And part of the beauty of the situation we find ourselves in is that each of us will respond to those challenges individualistically. Questions will probably come up for many now, such as: are disturbed people indeed functioning as a catalyst for shaktipat, and if so, how can this be? If the shakti is active in us and maybe even self-guiding, do we need an external guru? Where do the remarkable experiences of this path actually take us? Why does shaktipat apparently "wear off" for some and not for others? Though these questions have no fast answers, they do lead to fruitful contemplation. I don't pretend to be an answer man, or to tell others how to think or feel. But my best sense of things is that we should be optimistic. Since most in Siddha Yoga recognize that their spiritual development is very important, I trust they will be willing to face the sad facts and then explore their own truths. I agree with you, Paulibus: people shouldn't characterize their involvement with SYDA as either all good or all bad; rather, they should see it as a first baby step in life's long staircase. To take the next step is sometimes painful. But the alternative--standing still through denial and rationalization--is of course infinitely worse. To Siddha readers out there: please remember that the experiences do stay with you even if you mentally turn away from the guru. Subj: Re:To Paulibus, Howie Sm Date: 95-08-05 15:00:57 EDT From: Ego2go You sound like one of Charlie 47's buddies. He's been pointing this out for the past nine months. I think it was too subtle for most. I wish you luck with the intellectual approach. I don't think he had much luck with the heart. Subj: Re:To Paulibus, Howie Sm Date: 95-08-05 16:41:04 EDT From: Kaiwahine aloha all,I just came from hours of being in Gurumayi's presence,listening to her talk,having her darshan,and I am so at peace,ecstatic.What do you guys know that is more important than that?To create misery thru the mind?I already know that one.May you live in Baba's heart,and may I never leave it.aloha,Kaiwahine Subj: Some will................. Date: 95-08-05 16:57:49 EDT From: YingYangU Some will suffer. Some will understand. Some will find understanding through their suffering. Some will find suffering through their understanding. What could be more perfect. :) Subj: Howie to Ego2go Date: 95-08-05 17:13:03 EDT From: Howie Sm Thanks for the good wishes; I admit I'm surprised to hear them, for I'm sure you've noticed that I am in sympathy with people you seemed to attack earlier. Anyway, if we can talk with one another civilly, that's a good sign! Subj: Re:To Paulibus, Howie Sm Date: 95-08-06 06:27:52 EDT From: HenryD7890 Kaiwahine- You are addressing people who are saying that they are stunned and horrified to learn the facts about the sexual abuse, mental cruelty, corruption and dishonesty that began with Baba and which continue with Gurumayi. Could you lift yourself out of your trance for one second and see someone elses's reality? If you could, you would recognize how much hatred you yourself are expressing when you wish that these people "live in Baba's heart." Subj: Being Cool! Date: 95-08-06 17:32:02 EDT From: SPV10 Mahachiti you say your nobody special! Is that true? In the Tao it says in one of the poems Can you lead with being Known? Maha means the Supreme. Chiti means consciousness. So to you Your Most Supreme Consciousness I bow to nobody Special! Subj: My Baba Date: 95-08-06 18:34:44 EDT From: Charlie 47 Why do I use the name Baba? Thank you for the question Howie. My Baba is just that, "my Baba". My Baba is the Baba that I knew and came to love. My definition is based on my understanding. Feel free to read my previous posts if you are curious about who my Baba is. I am aware that many others had negative experiences. The experiences of others doesn't change my experience. There are persons that would object to the use of just about any name I could think of. Some would object to the use of the term "self" or "atman". I would be perfectly justified to use the name Bozo the Clown if, in fact, I felt that Bozo was my Guru. Some people may hate Bozo and some may love him but it's up to me to determine if he is a manifestation of my Guru. With love, Charlie Subj: Re: She's not there. Date: 95-08-06 18:53:57 EDT From: Bhyrava The experience of this board has been very powerful for me the last week or so. Especially I think, the copy of the letter from S. Trout. But other things too. I've found this board transformative before, but never like this. Maybe just more of the same. Very good. In a supermarket last night I heard the song by the 'Zombies' with the words: "Well noone told me about her, what could I do? Well noone told me about her, though they all knew. It's too late to say your sorry, how would I know, why should I care. Please don't bother trying to find her She's not there" It affected me alot with all the discussion of harm, responsibility, compassion, discrimination. I thought of posting it and then was reminded to do so by the post by MahaChiti, when she said, Gurumai was her model and, "She's not there". When Baba came to the US sometime soon after the Jim Jones suicides, reporters would always ask him about the dangers of people giving their lives to spiritual teachers. I think he really got fed up with the questions. One anwser he gave that I really liked was,"If you become a spiritual person it doesn't mean that when you wake up in the morning you can't see your face in the mirror" And also, "A spiritual person has to be more intelligent, smarter; not dumber, than those who are not on a path". Like the old joke about elephants and eggs goes, modified for this board. If you can't tell the difference between Hitler and Mohandas Gandhi, let's say, don't pick out a Guru. Your lack of discrimination puts you in a category of person not qualified for yoga. Subj: Re: 5 part open letter Date: 95-08-06 19:06:30 EDT From: LD3140 Dear Fellow Seekers Thank you for the courage and thoughtfulness of your letter. It is heartening to see that there are those who can look at both the darkness and the light without fear, who can accept their flawed humanity and the flawed humanity of the gurus and take the appropriate action-calling a spade a spade,facing the shadow because of the courage of the light inside allows them to do that, indeed demands that abuse and cruelty especially to minors deserves the name pedophilia, and cover up deserves the name lying. Reading Stan Trout's letter was another eye opener. The denial I suffered from at the time of that scandal didn't allow me to read that letter at the time and helped me to embrace the spiritual gobbledy gook that explained away the accusations of baba's sexual exploitation of young women. I am sad to see the same use of spiritual gobbledegook in some of the communications on this board used to explain away the irresponsible behavior of gurumayi with George Afiff. Stan trout's letter sure tells us where she learned to break her vows, lie and intimidate. But I know everyone has their time to face the shadow, it is not easy and courage has to be gathered and trust in self has to be fostered before looking at imperfection sends us running off into abstruse philosophical discussions or seeking the trance state which the ashram knows so well how to foster. From my own personal experience I know gurumayi and the swamis are lying about their participation in abuse, and violence and it is sad that these people who have been supposedly imbibing the teachings for years cannot give us the example of facing the pain of human existence by telling the truth, and trusting in the grace of God to forgive and heal. If trust in the Shakti were really practised we could be sending messages back and forth about how to heal and reorganize SYDA so it could encompass both the light and the shadow. regards, LD3140's partner Subj: Time out for a little LOL . . . Date: 95-08-06 20:29:58 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear Charlie 47, You say "I would be perfectly justified to use the name Bozo the Clown if, in fact, I felt that Bozo was my Guru." I believe you. Subj: Re:Think About It Date: 95-08-06 20:45:22 EDT From: E2233 Bhagirathi, and others: When I find out someone is a liar, a sex offender, and a thief, and that they have deceived and betrayed thousands of people with their cruelty; when I learn that in spite of their ability to evoke in others sublime spiritual experiences, they nevertheless behave in everyday life like evil despots; when I discover that someone who could do so much good has chosen instead to use their power to degrade and exploit others; then I can't accept it. If I understand your post correctly, you are saying that those who cannot accept Baba and Gurumayi because of the above reasons are like fools looking at the reflection of the sun and thinking it is the sun. Can this possibly be what you mean? Because if so, you are describing your own delusion to a tee. Some of you loyalists to the guru may think I am a harsh person. In fact, I loved these gurus more than my own life, and nothing was dearer to me than the company of devotees, than seva. However, I am proud to stand now with others, like Stan Trout, like Howie Sm, like LD3140, who have the courage and the strength to bear the pain, the tears and the rage, the betrayal and the disillusionment - all that comes with recognzing the crimes committed by the false gurus of SYDA. (The above mentioned people are not the authors of the new open letter). Myself, the open letter authors, and these others are saying what we say because we love God, we love yoga, we love Kundalini, we love and respect humanity. And the SYDA gurus have proven by their vicious actions that THEY DO NOT. And those who follow them, from our experience, tend to end up less human, less whole, less alive, and devoted to selfishness. The proof of this is: that you turn off your love, your compassion, your decency and simply refuse to hear of the crimes being committed right under your noses. Before you got into SYDA, was sexual abuse OK with you? Was lying, or being cruel to others OK? Listen to the evidence others offer. Why are these things OK with you now? Because Gurumayi told you not to think, not to look, not to know - just follow her, follow her, follow her. . . I think one of the most important reasons SYDA appealed to us, the open letter authors and others on this board, was that we felt that by offering our devotion, we could serve a higher purpose. We still believe that we can serve a higher purpose, and that by telling the truth out loud, we do exactly that. Subj: Re:Think About It Date: 95-08-06 22:05:37 EDT From: E3346 This has been such an interesting discussion, one that I am deeply moved by and grateful for, since I have had to look within myself. Shadow.... that which we are most angered by and and hateful of...exists within us. (and the reverse is also true) This is not to say that I feel any behavior is acceptable. Like I said before, we can only change ourselves...and we must sometimes do that at great risk. So thank you E2233 for presenting the opportunity. E Subj: Who's the Victim? Date: 95-08-07 03:58:31 EDT From: Ego2go I question the motivation of E2233 and some of the others that have been posting in this folder during the past few days. It is not uncommon to hear from those who would attack Siddha Yoga. It is apparent, to me, that there is reason to question their motivation. Are they acting out of anger or compassion. What are they truly offering us? Are they offering us understanding or righteous anger? Are they offering us darkness or light? I sense some heart but it appears to be conditional. E2233; I honestly don't understand how you can say that you have the courage to bear the pain, the tears and the rage, the betrayal and the disillusionment. You're not bearing it, you're dumping it! This situation reminds me of the dog that takes a dump on your lawn. Taking the dump is easy. Cleaning up the mess takes humility and compassion for the owner of the lawn. There is a lot of dumping going on here. I don't sense very much compassion for those who are being dumped on. E2233; you love your God. You love your yoga. You love your Kundalini. You conditionally love and respect humanity. You don't truly have respect, compassion or even a willingness to listen to those who find value in their experience of Siddha Yoga. It isn't enough that we acknowledge that we are aware of problems. The problems exist only as long as there is confusion. I sense deaf ears when some point out that they have worked it out on the inside. I sense disappointment that we don't all share in your anger. We are accused of being "less human, less whole, less alive and devoted to selfishness". TALK ABOUT GENERALIZATION! Does this sound like a compassionate person with an open mind? I'm not surprised that such persons could carry this luggage around for five or ten years or even a life time. Actually, it sounds like some of these people plan on making it their life work to share their anger and disillusionment. They truly believe that they are serving their higher self! What a shame that they don't seem to be able to recognize what they are being offered by many here. At one time I heard that there were over 100,000 people that practiced Siddha Yoga. I would be curious to know the true number. I would guess that the vast majority feel that it is well worth their time. I have personally talked to a number who feel Baba or Gurumayi literally saved their lives. What would you say to these people? Could you truly offer them understanding with your criticism? I'm under the impression that everyone that felt victimized by the Guru got a little too close. You know what happens when you fall asleep next to the fire. My wife spent four months on her own with Baba in India and over a year on tour in the United States. She felt it was incredebly intense yet one of the most beautiful and rewarding experiences of her life. In closing, I again thank you for your contributions to this forum. I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to contemplate your posts and reflect on my relationship with my Guru. GANESH Subj: Re:Ego to go Date: 95-08-07 12:27:46 EDT From: LD3140 Dear Fellow Seeker, The people who wrote the five part letter are the messengers, not the dumpers. You are confused about who's dog is dumping in your, no our spiritual yards. gurumayi, george afiff,SYDA and the swamis are the dumpers. It is they who are dumping responsibility for the corruption in themselves and in the organization.Abuse and lying are not spiritual practices, they are the smelly dumps you don't like fouling up your spiritual arena. The people who wrote that letter are just pointing their fingers and saying "look out, there's a dump on your lawn. don't step in it like we did."they go on to describe where it is and how you can avoid stepping in it.This is dealing with it not dumping it. I know how difficult it is to let in that the guru we all idealized isn't perfect I know how difficult it is to discriminate between the inner life of the spirit and the outer corruption of a powerful organizaton which insists on its own perfection. One can only do that by knowing exactly what one is separating from. I am grateful to the part 5 letter writers for their help in clarifying exactly the shape and size of the dump which baba, gurumayi and the swamis have left us alone to deal with. Those are not the actions of a compassionate community but the actions of people who are at best unconscious of the effects of their actions or at worst just don't care just so it's not on their lawn. Subj: World Tour Date: 95-08-07 13:39:25 EDT From: Wolfddy For those of you who, after all this, still wish to follow her and practice Siddha Yoga, Gurumayi will be arriving at the Oakland ashram in mid-November and will stay through New Years. Happy Holidays! WD Subj: Annotated SYDA bibliography Date: 95-08-07 13:56:55 EDT From: OldTimer36 SEVEN INDISPENSABLE SYDA DOCUMENTS: FOUR HARD-COPY SOURCES AND THREE AOL POSTS. HARD-COPY SOURCE #1. Harris, Lis. "O Guru, Guru, Guru." The New Yorker, November 14, 1994. Incipit: "The spiritual movement known as SYDA boasts a glittering clientele and a multimillion-dollar Catskills retreat. But behind all the serenity lie some uncomfortable, ill-kept secrets--and a less than blissful struggle about succession." Summary: A meticulously researched account which includes recent allegations as well as a convenient review of old allegations. HARD-COPY SOURCE #2. "I was ABDUCTED," in The Illustrated Weekly of India: March 16-22, 1986. Incipit: "In a sensational interview after his escape from Hawaii, Swami Nityananda reveals how he was forced to abdicate and abducted from the country by Ganeshpuri's gang of foreign devotees." HARD-COPY SOURCE #3. Rodarmor, William. "The Secret Life of Swami Muktananda." CoEvolution Quarterly, Winter 1983. Published abstract: "The last few years of Swami Muktananda's life saw a proliferation of abuses which are only now coming to light. William Rodarmor spent months interviewing former and current followers for this article. CoEvolution Quarterly independently contacted his major sources and confirmed the authenticity of their quotes and allegations." HARD-COPY SOURCE #4. Hard copies of related documents are available from Cult Awareness Network (C.A.N.), (312) 267-7777, 2421 W. Pratt Blvd., Ste. 1173, Chicago, IL 60645. AOL POST #1. Subj: About SYDA Yoga (parts 1-5) 95-08-02 Incipit: "This letter is from a group of people who have left Siddha Yoga and who were, at one time, very deeply involved with its activities . . ." Summary: Contains numerous new allegations against SYDA with some discussion of their profoundly negative effects on a group of disciples. AOL POST #2. Subj: From the archives (parts 1-6) 95-08-04 Incipit: "AN OPEN LETTER OF RESIGNATION FROM SWAMI ABHAYANANDA TO MUKTANANDA" Summary: An account of the sexual misconduct, harassment, and "maniacal" behavior that a SYDA swami discovered in his investigations. AOL POST #3. Subj: Bombshell news re lineage 95-07-21 Incipit: "Nityananda (Gurumayi's brother) has just been named the new Mahamandaleshwar; he is the head of the lineage now." Summary: The persecuted and scandalously deposed former co-leader of SYDA is now recognized as Muktananda's chief disciple by the Indian religious community. Subj: Re:Annotated SYDA bibliography Date: 95-08-07 15:31:13 EDT From: Ego2go Thank you for posting this information. I have everything you mentioned and more in my private library. I don't hesitate to share this information with mature Siddha Yoga friends. Virtually all have the common sense to look at their own experience of the Guru. GANESH Subj: Re: LD3140 Date: 95-08-07 17:19:34 EDT From: Charlie 47 Sounds like the Catholic Church to me. Subj: Onlookers, read this. 1 of 4 Date: 95-08-07 17:44:21 EDT From: Howie Sm MESSAGE 1 (In four parts) To onlookers, This message critically discusses some of the mind control that SYDA devotees have been subjected to, and is offered as a partial explanation of the bizarre impression made by messages read in this forum. You may have noticed with curiosity that--as stated in part five of the Re: Syda Yoga post--one can "speak no criticism of the guru without instantly being shunned, avoided and labeled mentally unbalanced by those who remain loyal to SYDA." You may wonder kind of regimen was imposed (both externally- and self-imposed) upon these people to precipitate this uniform (and alarming) tribal ostracization behavior. I offer here an interpretative explanation. Devotees violently shun ex-devotees (including former best friends) because the devotee's construction of reality is easily threatened. You see, the whole system of Siddha Yoga depends on the fragile illusion that "Gurumayi is a siddha--a siddha is (according to a SYDA definition) "a perfect human being; one who has attained the state of unity awareness; who experiences himself as all-pervasive and who has achieved mastery of his senses and their objects." Of course, in SYDA the normal turn of anyone's thoughts and empirical observations rail against this belief. Not because the notion of "a siddha" is intrinsically ridiculous, but because their guru is. For example, everyone can see that she has had facial plastic surgery. Why would a "perfect being" (who looked fine to begin with) have plastic surgery? This tiny example illustrates that at every turn, the devotee must rationalize away the data of common sense. So by the time devotees need to "deal with" someone who has chosen to leave the organization, they are well rehearsed in techniques of denial and rationalization. SEE MESSAGES 2, 3 AND 4 Subj: Onlookers, read this. 2 of 4 Date: 95-08-07 17:45:59 EDT From: Howie Sm MESSAGE 2 (of four parts) Dear outsiders, The key to understanding the devotee's need to ostracize former friends lies in their distrust of their own minds--indeed, their virtual hatred of the dissonant warning signals that come from the mind and senses. These hated signals of common sense challenge their "perfect" illusion. There are at least two ways they ARE TAUGHT to "stop their minds." The first is by crudely misinterpreting what are in fact profound yogic utterances. For example, a self-serving, thoughless interpretation of the marvelous" praise equals blame" maxim is commonly used to block out the constructive feedback from loved ones (and the rest of the world, for that matter). When these misinterpreted platitudes are strung end on end in a seemingly limitless algebra of rationalizing and mind-numbing formulae, you get the rumbling gibberish language that pervades this message board--what Dissent 670 aptly calls "yogaspeak." Outsiders, when you read these misshapen utterances, don't try to disentangle their meaning. They are a kind of Rube Goldberg defense mechanism that is perpetually grinding away, crushing the normal flow of thought. Typical example of conversational yogaspeak: "I heard the gossip and had a kriya and I did mental puja to the guru and then I realized that their maya was a kriya and she was a mirror for their samskaras and my karma was burned by the shakti and let the dogs bark and thank you Baba and . . . " You have already seen written yogaspeak on this board--this includes the vomiting of undigested platitudes with a large chunks of quotations, the 60s poetry, the swirling septic sludge of abstract spiritual nouns, the fortune-cookie truisms thrown about like slabs of beef. Written yogaspeak is stilted and monumental in style; it is unlike the "stream of consciousness," Leggoesque conversational style. Gurumayi and Ram Butler's writings serve as the models for the written style. Dismayingly, this robot language is the tongue of their innermost, emotionally charged prayers! SEE MESSAGES 3 AND 4 Subj: Onlookers, read this. 3 of 4 Date: 95-08-07 17:47:19 EDT From: Howie Sm MESSAGE 3 (of four parts) Dear onlookers, The second mind-stopping technique is to think something to the effect of "I trust my experiences" when faced with an illusion-threatening stimulus. What they are referring to as "experiences" are a wide range of fascinating affective responses that occur in this "path." What they fail to realize (or choose to deny) is that such affective responses are also widely reported in the "paths" of dangerously immoral frauds such as Da Free John (one of his many names), and the "nerve gas guru," Shoko Asahara. (An interesting parallel: Both Siddha yogis and Aum Shinrikyo cultists strove to drink their guru's bathwater.) Of course, fascinating experiences prove nothing about a guru's perfection. Full evidentiary proof of the fallacy of the "trust my experiences" argument is too large to post--this small discussion is merely illustrative. The large population of yogis and "seekers" who have investigated matters instead of buying into first tent show they've ever seen know about the "trust my experiences" fallacy. Given this, the rank-and-file devotee (to whom Gurumayi is an utter stranger) is a desperate creature, for their everyday life challenges their fragile illusion. Many of them are seen by their parents and siblings as embarrassments. The opinions of other outsiders are sometimes infinitely less generous. The result of this (often unconscious) desperation is that they retreat to the company of devotees where yogaspeak is encouraged, and they learn to automatically view outsiders as inferior, deluded, and guru-less. (If you've ever met one of the weird card-carrying SYDA devotees, you perhaps have noticed their patronizing, Amwayish rhetoric. To be fair, I should add that there are many nice--even if misguided--people in SYDA.) SEE MESSAGE 4 Subj: Onlookers, read this. 4 of 4 Date: 95-08-07 17:48:49 EDT From: Howie Sm MESSAGE 4 (of four parts) Dear onlookers, So you see the shrill tone of the devotee responses to E2233's letter is as drearily predictable and explainable as the yogaspeak language that frames it. Those who stumble upon this list probably now associate the term "SYDA devotee" with the image of a "shameless and embarrassing fanatic." I imagine that for outside parties (to whom the allegations may seem rather abstract and faint) the irrational and primitive voices of devotees are perceived as louder and more concrete arguments against SYDA. When I think of those looking in at this discussion, I wonder what is more frightening to you--the guru's misconduct, or the rationalizing and denial used by her followers? What is more frightening to you--the "disciples'" narcissistic clinging to subjective "experiences" as a way of defending sexual predation and other offenses, or their woolly-headed belief that the enjoyment of the benefits of yoga depends on the unceasing worship of a phony, and on the repression of common sense? I follow this board because it has all the great human themes in microcosm, and is a reasonably amusing way to pass spare time. I am not completely disinterested, for I would like to present some basic ideas and facts to the devotees so they can make informed decisions. Why are my criticisms pointedly made? Though a cordial tone is undeniably preferable, cordiality is often grossly misread as pro-SYDA rhetoric. A cursory survey of this board illustrates. Basically one must compensate for their poor reading comprehension. One last point. Why is their reading comprehension so poor?--Steve Hassan reported that his exclusive reading of Moon literature for two years destroyed his reading comprehension for some time even after his leaving the cult. I hope you onlookers stay with this board. Though you won't see much about yoga here, you will see much that is illustrative of human nature. And you have to admit: the whole thing is rather entertaining. Subj: Re:To Paulibus, Howie Sm Date: 95-08-07 19:21:27 EDT From: Kaiwahine Henry,I am so practtical a person,a business person,non airy fairy that it is humorous that you accuse me of being in a trance.I too have read all the stuff.Why would I trust a non realized being over one who has given life to hundreds of thousands?which reallity do you prefer?and does it bring you peace?If you are so angry with Baba and Gurumayi why do you hang in this forum?free yourself.There ARE other paths.Pick one and be at peace.Aloha,Kaiwahine Subj: Re:This is Sadhana Date: 95-08-08 01:31:20 EDT From: SueB RD Someone told me to come back to this folder. Apparently something was going on other than some deranged individual on a soapbox. As an onlooker, i would recommend to you the recent article in this months Yoga Journal--an interview with Andrew Harvey. He posits, among other things that 90% of todays "gurus" are not enlightened at all, but occultists practicing their powers. For those of you who choose to go it on your own, you will find comfort/inspiration in this article. Thank you all for your honesty. I will not be visiting any Siddha Yoga Ashrams. Subj: Brainwash examination Date: 95-08-08 01:55:41 EDT From: Dissent670 Seems not many people here care about their own brainwashing. Howie Sm's posts seemed like stunners to me, yet they are ignored. Others post long scriptural cut-and-pastes and are praised by kindred spirits for their "heart" and "love". Gee Toto, I guess we're not in Kansas anymore. I also spent many years hiding in purple prose. It was so seductive to be right all the time. "The world is as you see it"... "When a pickpocket meets a saint, all he sees is his pockets"... "God is Love"... I only felt the hubristic righteousness of my mental platform when I was "forced" to "go out into the world" and interact with "nondevotees". My reaction for many years was to flee back to the ashram each day for the evening program, express my relief to other devotees of being "back in the Guru's home" (and receive a guaranteed chorus of agreement), sit on my asana, listen to what the Programming Department had pulled together for the evening, and "soak up the shakti". I agreed with Ego2go: I was wrong when I felt angry. I absorbed the language of SYDA quickly and hungrily. Every once in awhile I would feel a pang that the wisdom I was acquiring was not my own. No matter, that's what the courses were about. And seva. And lots of chanting. And mantra. And prayer for the experiences which would validate what I already "knew". Before long, my entire social circle consisted of devotees. I felt "more comfortable" with them - they "loved God in themselves and others".They had "bhakti" and "great hearts", they were "great beings" - and some returned the compliments. I reinterpreted every impression to revalidate the teachings, "my boat across the raging waters of karma". Yet I knew I was full of it. What better way to purge my falseness, not to mention any last scrap of "resistence", but to spend a month on the top of a hill in Ganeshpuri wearing white clothes and doing nonstop austerities? That would take care of my guilt. It did not. I had what I know now was a nervous breakdown. I felt very near total madness. My SYDA conditioning became a conspiracy to "push me over the edge". I thought that was what God and Guru wanted. I thought my ego was "making" me suffer. I thought I had to kill my will. But it was not what I wanted. And much as I tried not to, I decided I mattered - ego, will and all. I suppose some here would find that decision a tragic spiritual mistake. It was a turning point for my own choice of sanity. As some may notice, I no longer express myself via SYDA pablum. I call a spade a spade, when I recognize one. And there are many spades being called in the Open Letter. Our philosophizing obscures truth, and ourselves. It does not reveal it. And this is what Gurumayi wants, even if she says otherwise, because this is how she runs her ashram. See for yourself. In my experience, it took a real effort and interest in examining my own brainwashing to begin to develop a nose for fraud. I hope others do too. I am a far happier guy, experiencing adulthood for the first time, even if I don't have ready answers, or a ready smile, or a Guru Who Loves Me. Subj: Powerful Date: 95-08-08 10:34:59 EDT From: E3346 What an incredible and powerful experience for anyone willing to read. For people like me who were searching for a path, but not yet involved, It was truly a miracle that I found this board and these postings. I really have to thank my, God, guru, higher power, the Sage, the Divine (whichever term might be suitable for the reader of this) that Divine intervention showed me that this was was not right for me. Not to say that others don't get or haven't gotten something positive from this (SYDA)......that is *their* experience and far be it from me to interfere with another's choice of path/karma. Once again, Thank you to all of you who have chosen to take a risk by sharing your experience. Eileen (E) Subj: Re:Brainwash examination Date: 95-08-08 12:21:04 EDT From: MahaChiti It seems so very strange to me that you had such an unhappy & painful experience with Gurumayi and the SYDA organization, such that you felt brainwashed and the need to extract yourself to be sane/whole. You see I have had exactly the opposite experience. I felt less then whole, even insane before I got involved with SYDA yoga & Gurumayi (about 10 years ago) I was so disillusioned by myself, others & life. Now that has totally changed ... and I do attribute it to the GURU (the Guru Principle/Christ/Buddha Nature/ True Self .... all synonyms for me) that I experience Guyumayi to be an embodiment of. The one main difference that I see in my experience and what I understand from your post about yours is that I have never spent very much time in the Ashram. I have always been “out in the world” with all the “non-devotees” ... actually I have always understood this to be the teaching & the point of SYDA.... to gain new understanding and to then go and live your every day life in the world FROM this understanding. To serve others and your community. To do your spiritual practices so that you maintain and expand what you have received. Hea! what can I say, it works for me!! I can not really speak to all the allegations that have come out lately. I really do not know if they are accurate, partially accurate or false. I must say that if the allegations are as real/accurate as some claim I am surprised that no legal action has been taken by those claiming the injustices. Perhaps I am just not aware that they have done so ... I must say that for me, when I have made my visits to the Ashram I have been particularly impressed by the integrity, devotion and genuine kindness which I have observed and experience from the people I encountered at the Ashram. Everyone, with out an exception in 10 years of visits, from those who are in “official” positions down to room mates I experienced as exemplary human beings. In fact I am often moved to tears just watching people at the Ashram, I see the seeds of global peace in how they are treating each other ... this is how it could be everywhere... As a part of my collage work in anthropology & sociology I did a study on cults & the brainwashing techniques used. As a part of this I did some field research in San Francisco by going to a “orientation” (recruiting) meeting of Rev Moon’s group. Having done much research I was looking for the classic brainwashing symptoms, and they were there. Any way my point is that I feel that I have enough intelligence and knowledge to see blatant brain washing when it is there. I do not see it in SYDA. People are not controlled, hours regulated etc. in the Ashram that I have ever observed. On the other hand people relate to the Guru (and Jesus, Allah. Buddha, the devil etc.) according to their own understanding (which is what SYDA teaches) some at higher levels of understanding, some at lower. Some people mistake the form of the outer Guru for an intermediary between them and God/Self. Some understand that the Guru is a Principle and relate to the outer Guru as an example of that. What else can be expected? I have heard and read again and again the warning from Baba & Gurumayi to not mistake the form/body of the guru for the Guru Itself. So you see I really do not know why I have had such a great experience in my involvement with SYDA while you report the opposite ... May God reveal to each of us the compassion and wisdom to understand this life, each other, and guide us all to a better expression of love, respect and kindness. May God relieve suffering where ever and however it takes place and heal all wounds with the balm of pure wisdom and Divine Love. Subj: Ego2go's ego has gotta go! Date: 95-08-08 12:41:54 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear Ego2go, Ego2go, since you say, "I don't hesitate to share this information with mature Siddha Yoga friends," I ask you: What qualifications do you have that authorize you to judge whether someone is "mature"? Are some people not "ready" for information? Are you saying newcomers shouldn't be shown all the cards--shouldn't be allowed to decide for themselves? One astute writer notes "They (cult members) operate under the assumption that people are too 'ignorant' or too 'unspiritual' to recognize what is best for them. They therefore take it upon themselves to make decisions for the people . . ." I'm afraid the word "mature" gave you away. (P.S.--I of course acknowledge the presence of a stray elitist connotation in your sentence which points to the existence of "immature" people out there--unwashed clods unworthy of consideration--who are quite unlike your "mature Siddha Yoga friends." I presume that, by the lights of your judgmental insight, the ranks of the "immature" would include any and all critics of the guru.) Subj: Re:Howie Sm Date: 95-08-08 13:08:56 EDT From: Wolfddy Dear Howie: I did not see so much your pointed attack on aspects of SYDA as I saw a very smug and selfsatisfied being sitting in judgement of those of us who chose to divine what we will from Gurumayi and Kashmir Shavism. Please don't assume that your perspective/truth is anyone elses. And MahaChiti, thank you for your sane response among all this fingerpointing madness. I hope to see you at the Oakland ashram when Gurumayi arrives. WD Subj: Apologies Date: 95-08-08 17:16:49 EDT From: EsKimoKwin When the final time comes, it will be too late then to communicate what we need to, if we haven't done so already. Anyone of us could 'go' at any time. Baba always said a yogi would have accomplished and said everything needed before leaving, and that we must take advantage of every moment in our life to get our life straight. To get ourselves ready, so when the final time came there would be no regrets. Nothing undone. Baba, I wish you would have replied to questions about yourself. Gurumayi, I wish you would've talked of something this weekend beside the importance of a proper diet and the need to control one's speech. Subj: Reply to Howie Date: 95-08-08 17:53:44 EDT From: Muladhari You portray the Siddha students in too extreme negative terms. This is true for at least the ones that I know. My roomates are into it, know I am not, and are as nice as can be to me. The ones I know are OK, nice people. The philosophical discussions are not too weighty. The attitude is mostly "Don't worry. Be happy". *Very* nice people. Some in it are snobs, defintely; those are the power-nuts closer to the inner circle of the heirarchy, not the general followers. As far as reading goes. From what I could follow it was E2233 and SVP10 who had the problem. Ganesh seems to me to read very well. (And he's definitely a bona fide follower, if you haven't guessed). Just because I sometimes strongly disagree with him won't make me stoop to personal attacks. To respect a person with whom one disagrees makes for a better quality of life all around. Let my enemies do the name-calling. It shows them in their true colors. Subj: Re:The Open Letters Date: 95-08-09 00:22:11 EDT From: HenryD7890 What courage it must have taken Stan Trout to come out and sign his name to the letter he wrote, revealing the horror of Muktananda's compulsive, sick pedophilia; and the disgusting cover-up activities Muktananda led, his seeking to discredit and cause physical harm and intimidation of others. This is not a divine guru - this is a criminal. E2233 has posted, perhaps helped to write, an anonymous letter which I find no less courageous for spelling out the deception, cruelty, and ongoing sexual abuse under Gurumayi. E2233 sounds angry in some of his posts to others on the board; it must be very frustrating, when someone is speaking of hidden abuse, to go completely unheard -- like a woman who reports that she was raped and must then be questioned by men who say she was asking for it. It is shocking to me that people on this board who claim to be spiritual seekers can hear such obviously convincing stories of abuse and utterly ignore them. I can only imagine that you have not really read these letters. Thank God I would never have to depend on any of you, who dismiss these statements so blindly, for any kind of help that I might ever need. Yes, I agree with Howie Sm and others that the righteousness and arrogance of these blind followers is frightening; I pray none of them are ever hurt as others have been by Gurumayi. I had beautiful experiences, too, and a number of years of happiness in Syda. But it seems obvious to me that the goodness comes from individuals there, not from the gurus. Thank you Howie Sm, LD3140 and others on this board who do not turn blindly away from the truth. Subj: My Turn, Pt. 1 Date: 95-08-09 15:03:16 EDT From: Kumuda I'm not going to post anonymously, because I stand by what I have to say, and am not afraid to speak my mind. Many of you may know me. I lived in SYDA's South Fallsburg ashram for about ten years before moving to Los Angeles six years ago. I've read the articles, and I've read the posts. I am not a cultist fanatic in denial of anything negative I may hear about Siddha Yoga. I don't know that you could say I was in the "inner circle", but during my ten years living in the ashram, I certainly was aware of whatever was going on. Its not that I approve of everything I saw and heard. I have had my own difficult times with some of the people there. I can understand where the anger comes from to write the five-page open letter, and I honor your right to express what you believe and what you feel. We each have a choice as to what we believe, and how we organize what we believe. As with everything else in this world, there are many viewpoints through which a person can judge Siddha Yoga. Just as truth can be manipulated or bent to present an image of "absolute perfection", in the same way it can be manipulated to present an image of total degradation. After seeing and being aware of whatever happened in the ashram during my ten years there, I do not perceive the total degradation some of the posts refer to. This does not mean I personally approved of everything that went on around me, just as I don't personally approve of everything I've ever done. But to be honest, the gratitude I have to Gurumayi, Baba and Siddha Yoga far outweighs any judgements or negativity that may be there. And this is not a superficial statement. I have spent a great deal of time and care in contemplating my relationship to this path. I am quite honest with myself about what I do and don't like about it. I firmly believe that the foundation of Siddha Yoga is in light, in goodness, just as I believe my own foundation is in light and goodness. Nevertheless, sometimes I find myself being pushed in less sattvic or pure ways by the waves of this world. In the same way, an organization that becomes as large as Siddha Yoga, is bound to be sullied to some extent -- at least externally -- by the ways of this world, by the human failings of its members, even by devotees' grandiose expectations of the "magic" and "perfection" that they believe will carry them effortlessly to the state of realization. Such expectations can certainly lead to anger and disappointment. Gurumayi is a Guru. Her job is to teach and guide. The shakti, the energy she carries is tangible and powerful. She doesn't have to be without a single fault. She doesn't have to wear rags. She doesn't have to smile and hug everybody. Baba doesn't have to be without fault. Nor do we have to be faultless in order to experience our own greatness. Yes, I think it would be great if all of the things that happen in Siddha Yoga were fully explained. But each person has to take responsibility for understanding why they believe what they believe, for finding out if it serves a purpose in attaining their goal. This is sadhana, the attainment of inner understanding. True knowledge cannot be spoon-fed, it has to be discovered inside. And with the knowledge that comes from inner honesty and contemplation, there isn't this extreme let-down or "bubble-bursting" disillusionment that manifests as the kinds of posts we have been seeing. The people who practice Siddha Yoga come from a wide spectrum of life. Many expound their beliefs and faith as though they were gospel. It is up to each person to filter and contemplate what is said and done through their own intuition and inner knowledge, and to decide if a particular path will work for them. Subj: My Turn, Pt. 2 Date: 95-08-09 15:03:29 EDT From: Kumuda I have studied many traditions, scientific, spiritual and philosophical. Although these paths all gave me a great deal of insight and understanding, Siddha Yoga gave me something that I was not able to gain from them. Through the discipline and shakti of the Ashram, I was able to go so deep inside my own self, feeling protected and guided throughout my travels. Through the incredible teachings that Baba and Gurumayi presented, I was able to finally put words on insights that I had previously kept inside, for a lack of context to place them in. And the teachings took my own inner knowledge and carried it higher and expanded it more and more until it changed my entire world view and experience. You can't buy this. You can't will it. I'm not saying it isn't possible to attain the experiences I've had through other paths, but for me Siddha Yoga was the ticket. I walked into the ashram from a somewhat difficult and abusive childhood. I had already attempted suicide, and was generally not a happy person. I had completely closed myself off to emotions and feelings. In the ashram I had many experiences with Baba, Gurumayi and the other ashramites. Some were difficult, some were loving and divinely inspirational. But what is important is that for the first time in my entire life, my heart opened, and I felt love. This is not just jargon. My heart finally opened. For the first time I began to feel -- love, devotion, pain, sadness, grief. . . so many emotions I had learned to keep in my pocket for so many years. I became a human being. I learned to really love someone -- the Guru-- fully, with every particle of my being. And once that love expanded, I was forced to wrap it around myself. Yes, I thought that Gurumayi was cruel at times for intentionally ignoring me when I desperately wanted and needed a smile or a caring glance. But now it is totally clear to me that this was her technique for forcing me to find strength and love inside of myself. And it worked. I now wrap myself in love and devotion. I would never dream of killing myself or doing anything to harm myself. I know that the greatness I was looking for in the Guru lives fully inside of me, and at times I am able to jump completely into that space of greatness and perfection. Gurumayi worked very hard to create this new me, to scrub away the sadness and defense mechanisms that had kept me closed to my own expansion and joy. She put a lot of time and effort into "working on me", and only I can know the grace that flowed through me, the soothing blue light that surrounded me, even when her work on me took the form of "tough love" -- what some onlookers might have consider to be "emotional abuse". All I know is that it worked. I came to this path for something, and I got it. Just as you don't question the mechanic who is fixing your car (Is he supposed to be hitting that thing so hard? Should he be just emptying out all that oil? Does he cheat on his wife?), what matters is that you drive off with what you wanted, a fixed car; in the same way, I do not choose to stand in judgement of the Guru and her methods. This does not mean I subscribe to some dogma or brainwashing that has been alluded to in some posts, it is my conscious choice. There is a Sufi qawwali that states: "One cannot say that the Master is God, and yet one cannot say that he is not God. Then what is he and what is he not? It is a matter between the lover and the beloved." My experience of the Guru is just that -- my experience. And to disregard the strength of one's experience because someone tells you to is stupid. Anger and revenge can easily become a cult. It is fine to share and discuss your experience, even if it is negative, but you can't expect everyone to bow down to your beliefs. Subj: My Turn, Pt. 3 Date: 95-08-09 15:03:34 EDT From: Kumuda When Gurumayi told me to leave the ashram, I moved to Los Angeles and became successful as a video and film editor -- the seva I learned and performed in the ashram. I found steady contentment, and the quality of my work and my life kept improving. I became free inside, free to grow, to explore, to make mistakes, and to acknowledge the greatness inside myself. This freedom was a natural blossoming of the experiences I had in the ashram -- experiences that were brought forth by Baba and Gurumayi. Yes, all this greatness was always inside of me, but when I was out there trying to commit suicide, clearly I was not able to access it. I owe my life to Gurumayi, Baba and Siddha Yoga, both literally and figuratively. I trusted them with my heart, and they gave it back to me filled with divinity and greatness -- my own greatness. Whatever difficulties I may have experienced with some of the people in the ashram, have made me strong and clear, and willing to stand up for myself with power and confidence. Gurumayi is a true teacher. She did not keep me in the ashram even though I provided a service that benefitted the ashram. She gave me what I came for and then pushed me out of the nest because she could see that it was time for me to learn to fly, even though I would have chosen to stay forever. And now, thanks to the Grace of the Siddhas and my own Inner Self, I get to fly. . . Respectfully yours, Kumuda Subj: Different experiences Date: 95-08-09 00:28:15 EDT From: Dissent670 An issue that has come up in our discussions is the fact that many of us have had very different experiences of SYDA. I suggest that this has much to do with how willing one is to scratch the surface. MahaChiti, you say you have spent little time in ashrams. I say: good for you, really. I spent too much time in ashrams. I tried to take in too much of what was being put out, tried to change to much, and nearly went crazy for it. I didn't know, for instance, how much George Afif was really running the show, especially the Programming Department. And for a long time, I wasn't clear enough about my real needs to resist when someone I respected told me that I should take the next course or Intensive. The thing is, I wasn't alone, and Gurumayi had swamis stand up in evening programs saying things as irresponsible as "Everyone should take the Intensive". If you start hanging around long enough, you would see how cookie-cutter the whole thing is. I didn't ask many questions in my ashram tenure - I didn't want to rock the boat that might carry me across the ocean of samsara. Lis Harris, the author of the New Yorker article, did begin asking questions. As I hear it, she was as entranced with SY as I was, but she wanted to know more about its history and its humanity. She didn't know at first that she was breaking a taboo that would eventually lead to earnest legal threats. The sweetness of the atmosphere and the people is manufactured. You can see that right in this folder. My experience is that there is some sort of real energy around SY, and it feels as if it has healing power, but it is not the energy of truth. I suspect it may actually be the energy of collective denial. I realize saying so may feel deeply offensive to some, but I would greatly value some substantive discussion of the nature of this so-called shakti. There is simply too much being hidden, as the Open Letter begins to report, for this energy to be characterized as one of revelation and real inner movement. Once again, I must ask: why does Gurumayi perpetuate a lie about her own perfection? Subj: Re:Different experiences Date: 95-08-09 02:08:56 EDT From: PAN CYAN Here is one dichotomy;how does one explain the obvious spiritual power that baba had and GM still shows.On the darshan line three years ago without saying a word she leaned over put her eyes in front of mine and just filled me with energy.I still feel it.In his books Rudi talks at length about dealing with magicians.Taking the impersonal energy for nourishment and noot getting involved with personalities.I am not an syda apologist,but after all, the question is a valid one. Subj: Re:Different experiences Date: 95-08-09 02:22:50 EDT From: X1195 I think I've finally had enough of the whining in this folder. Are you people all really emotionally 10 years old? :And for a long time, I wasn't clear enough about my real needs to resist :when someone I respected told me that I should take the next course or :Intensive. The thing is, I wasn't alone, and Gurumayi had swamis stand up :in evening programs saying things as irresponsible as "Everyone should :take the Intensive". Oh come on, please! If I ate everything in the Amrit, every time anyone suggested "Everyone should really try the burritos", I'd be five hundred pounds! More generally, my experience has always been that the immature people immediately want to be "close" to Gurumayi and so put out effort to become part of the "inner circle". Why would anyone do this? Only ego! They also like the ego satisfaction of being privy to secrets and bossing other people around. Their ego wants the satisfaction of having personal affirmation from Gurumayi about how wonderful they are. The only problem is --- that is the LAST thing a real Guru would do. The whole advantage of having a living Guru is to *crush* your ego. Of course if they were READING about Siddha Yoga, instead of spending all their time trying to insinuate themselves into the organization, they would understand this. When after working hard for a long time, they don't get their ego stroked by Gurumayi, they get angry and leave the organization -- which is probably fine -- since they're not looking for those things it provides. You should note that when people angrily leave an organization or a relationship (and Siddha Yoga is both!), it is VERY common for them to fabricate lies about those who are the object of their anger. But while we see on the news that people go so far as to spray bullets through their former places of employment, somehow we can't accept that others might just lie instead. We don't even consider that any of these stories might be subject to the "telephone" process, that the actual incidents might be quite different from what really happened. Those who are too wrapped up in their ego to receive any benefit from Siddha Yoga find those anecdotes very plausible. Those who have found Siddha Yoga to be very beneficial in their lives are less likely to swallow them whole. Namaste Subj: Re:X1195, the Perfect Nazi Date: 95-08-09 05:54:00 EDT From: HenryD7890 Yes, the perfect Nazi. "Those people just don't recognized greatness when they see it, so they whine and make up ridiculous stories about gas chambers." How about the young woman I know, just barely 20, who was sexually harassed by George Afif for more than a year. It was ongoing because when she told Gurumayi about it, GM blamed her for what was happening; she made the girl stay in a seva very close to Afif; she told the girl never to tell anyone else what was going on and especially never to tell her mother, a long time devotee; and finally Gurumayi blamed this young woman for the falling apart of some grandiose project, which in fact was entirely Afif's fault; and kicked this young woman out of the ashram. When she finally tried to tell her mother what happened, her mother didn't believe her, and said, "well, maybe it's your karma." Eventually, her mother did believe her, and she and many others left syda; only to find that Gurumayi has Namdev Hayes and others tell people who ask about this young woman that the girl was a slut. So you, X1195, are being used by Gurumayi as one of her Facsist brown shirts, as one of the people who she knows will never expose her viciousness, because she has you completely in her power. And if you think that the people who left are lying because of bruised egos, the fact is they are telling the truth horrible truth they tell because they were more loyal and more faithful to the guru than most; they loved more; they believed more. How sickening to see the word namaste at the end of your post. Just like the Nazis used the swastika. To:X1195 - From: E2233 Your recent comments have been very stimulating. Here are some more questions for you. You speak of Milarepa, and destroying the devotee's ego, and consider that to be what SYDA dissenters object to because of their own big egos that got hurt. So please answer these questions: 1. Are you saying that you do not believe that Baba spent night after night, year after year, bringing young girls to his room, where he laid them down on his specially built table, and had sex with them? And did all this while claiming to be celibate, and chastising others for having sexual impulses? Or are you saying that you do believe this happened, but that it happened for the benefit of modifying the egos of the young girls he had sex with? And that his refusal to be accountable about this, when confronted with accusations, was also for the sake of improving devotees' egos? 2. Are you saying that you do not believe that Gurumayi approved of and instigated countless harassments, threats and violent actions against her brother, Nityananda? Or are you saying that she did involve herself in these activities over a period of many years, but that it was the action of a great guru busting her brother's big ego, and not the obssessive, sick vindictiveness of a ruthless and dishonest megalomaniac? 3. Are you saying that you do not believe that Gurumayi allowed George Afif to continue to prey on scores and scores of young girls in the ashram by seducing them or sexually harrassing them? Or are you saying that she used Afif to help bust the egos of these young girls, or burn their karmas, or engage them in some other yogic process? You have consistently avoided addressing these specific issues, among all the others, like the discrimination against homosexuals, the secret surveillance and spying that goes on in the ashram, the unethical manipulation of how therapists work with clients, etc. etc. etc. I would appreciate it if you would respond to the above questions on this board, and explain whether you are saying that these things did not happen, or that they happened by the grace of a master who must take extraordinary measures to activate yogic processes in his/her devotees. Of course, you know that I believe that SYDA uses the concept of yogic processes activated by the guru as a deceptive hoax intended to cover a multitude of sins. Subj: ONE THING IS SURE... Date: 95-08-09 20:07:08 EDT From: Fafoofnik If SYDA is as rotten at the core as these many allegations say it is, then it will all come out some day--it *must*. And many will be vindicated, many will be avenged, and many will pay--and many will get away scot free. Don't *ever* give away control of your own life. You do it at your peril. Subj: Re: miracle 101 Date: 95-08-10 00:33:03 EDT From: LD3140 Dear Miracle, I wish gurumayi would practice what she preaches.There was no respect or gentleness in the way she sent people to harass her brother, nor in the way she failed to protect the young women who came to her for protection against George Afiff's sexual harassment. She has no respect for the many devotees who have served her faithfully for years. If she had respect for them she would take responsibility for her failure to act according to the principle of "ahimsa" or non injury, one of the qualities by which you can identify a true guru.LD3140's partner Subj: Re: Kumuda's & MahaChitti's turn Date: 95-08-10 01:21:02 EDT From: Dissent670 I'd like to thank you both for reaching into yourselves and speaking straightforwardly of your experiences with your own voice. They have real (and rare) heart. I had some amazing experiences in SY too. I certainly felt something. There is certainly some power there. I feel some heartache reading your posts, and a recurring doubt: did I miss something after all those years? Then a voice filled with derisive guilt that sounds just very much like X1195 nags me. Why did I pull away? Was I just afraid to be "fully baked"? Am I on an ego rampage? How can I judge a saint with my puny human understanding? Here's the thing: evidence is mounting that GM has plenty of growing up to do herself. Yet she doesn't say so. She allows everyone to perpetuate a myth of perfection around her. And I just can't relate to that. There's heartlessness in that which does not inspire me. Or rather, the heartlessness in her denial of her real humanity eventually inspires me to post in ways that true-believing devotees object to. I'm not going to change GM tapping away on my silly typewriter here late at night. I'm not going to change the huge, mounting collective desire for a convincing myth of salvation (with highly selective, emotionally correct experiences used to back it up). But I can benefit myself and perhaps a couple others by at least speaking up about it. I did not personally experience the sheer cruel abuse that E2233 describes. My painful journey was more of my own madness, and how it interacted with what the Programming Department was putting out. The reportage of the Open Letter demonstrates the forms such madness can take as one gets "close to the Guru". What does it mean, that those who work with GM closely must lose consciousness in order to become loyal to her? Are we being asked to interpret this fact as yet more evidence of GM's divine power? I have come through my experience having developed a nose for fraud and I am simply going "sniff sniff". Seems most readers could do without the service. I am saddened but not discouraged to see that so many devotees find this path an inappropriate place to practice what, for me, has been a hard-won and highly valued survival skill. If we are feeling threatened, isn't it helpful to examine where the threat really is? So Kumuda and MahaChitti, I can't touch your experiences. They have heart, and with heart you can fight the abuses because you can feel them. Not everyone can, or wants to. It is the burden of maturity. I wish you the best. Subj: Re: MataChiti's post Date: 95-08-10 02:34:18 EDT From: TBoggis Thank you for your articulate contribution to this board. I'm sure it was terribly challenging to describe a very nearly indescribable experience, but it was lucid and clear and helped provide a balance. I have been reading this board since January, and have never felt it to be so worthwhile as it has been since the 5-part letter posting. There have been many thoughful and worthwhile messages from all positions. I have a lot to contemplate. Subj: On SYDA testimonials (1 of 2) Date: 95-08-10 06:50:21 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 2 - On SYDA testimonials. The ubiquitous well-oiled testimonials. To hear the benefits people doubtlessly have had while attached to such places as SYDA, Nityananda's ashram, Da Free John's, and Rajneesh's (to name a few better-known places) reminds us of what has been true since the first group religion: That "experience talks"--embarrassing, narcissistic public testimonials--are a central bonding ritual which reinforces group identity, recruits new believers, propagandizes, and sells merchandise. In SYDA, the stand-up experience talker is a HEAVILY-COACHED AND EDITED ventriloquist's dummy manipulated by the "programming department." With repeated exposures, listening devotees passively learn to ape the stand-up dummy. The result is, devotees automatically interpret their very real experiences by the VERY SURREAL lights of SYDA's conceptual system and organizational objectives. Since devotees are taught by example to report their private experiences to anyone within earshot--in SYDAesque terms, of course--these testimonials are everywhere thrust in your face. The sad truth is, these traveling talkers are truly unaware of how parrot-like their bracketing and interpretation of experience appears to others. What is conspicuously missing from these testimonials is a frank acknowledgment that DISCIPLES' EXPERIENCES CONTINUE NO MATTER WHAT MISCONDUCT THE GURU ENGAGES IN. Experienced seekers know this. The failure of "experience talkers" to admit this shows a tremendous lack of spiritual maturity and curiosity. The fact that "the big experience" occurred around a "certified hypocrite" would be about the first thing any free thinker would mention in an experience talk, I should think. The ritual of "experience talks" helps the guru learn that he/she can get away with murder. A guru commits an abuse and then hears someone an hour later describe him/her as the source of a God-experience. In this way, experience talks function as the guru's green light for abuses. Gurumayi herself has implied she can get away with anything. When asked about her overnight trysts with Afif, she is reported to have said: "You should know that nothing I could do would affect what I've been given." (New Yorker article) Though the guru can do anything she wants and your experiences continue, it also holds that YOU CAN LEAVE WITH INTEGRITY and have your experiences continue. SEE PART 2 Subj: On SYDA testimonials (2 of 2) Date: 95-08-10 06:51:44 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 OF 2 - On SYDA testimonials. That disciples' experiences don't depend on a guru's "purity" shows how little-understood kundalini yoga actually is! The guru can be a slimebucket, and disciples' experiences continue! Why don't we dispense with the old-hat experience talks, and instead focus on examining the nature of this awesome energy--WITHOUT PRETENDING WE HAVE THE ANSWERS just because we subscribe to Darshan magazine and Ram Butler. Let's get to the bottom of this together, in the light of day, with self-respect, without rationalizations. Future researchers of kundalini will view our society as a mixture of blinkered religious maniacs and indifferent scientists. Let's admit it: the existing accounts of kundalini are utterly unacceptable and incomplete. Let's drop the unproductive, rehearsed charade and do something forward-looking. If kundalini is all that it's cracked up to be--and my experiences suggest that it is--your shakti (and its benefits) won't leave you even if you dare to look at the whole picture. And experience talkers: Please try to imagine how frightening your narcissistic standard of truth appears to those who respect the "golden rule." Note: SYDA party-liners who have been taught that Nityananda is a phony guru and Gurumayi is not, be advised that people have been reporting big experiences at his ashram. According to SYDA's "experience talk" standard, this