***These posts are a continuation of part 1, and take up the
discussion of SYDA that began on America ONline in August, 1995, after
the publication there of an Open Letter About SYDA.  If you have not
read the 2 Open Letters about SYDA, one from 1995 and the other from
1981, please download these letters first, and also read the aol1.txt
file before reading this one.

Not all the posts that appeared are reprinted here, and most of the
posts express criticism, satire and dissent about SYDA.



Subj:  Open Letters
Date:  96-02-16 06:57:51 EST
From:  Dissent222      

To those who are not aware, there are numerous former devotees of Siddha Yoga
who have left because of extensive and ongoing deception, corruption and
abuse in the organization and amongst its teachers and leaders, including
Muktananda and Gurumayi.

The Hinduism File Library contains An Open Letter About SYDA Yoga, and
a 1981 Open Letter about SYDA, as well as a Critical SYDA
Bibliography.  Also, and edited version of a debate about SYDA on AOL
is available, called AOL - SYDA Discussion 8/95.  Please download
these files and read them.

Also, the World Wide Web has a page which archives an edited version of the
discussion that took place on AOL about these Open Letters.

The Address is:

http://www.ex-cult.org/Groups/SYDA-Yoga/

Please read this material and be informed.

You may address comments to: an302429@anon.pen


Date:  96-02-05 21:22:11 EST
From:  Dissent222      

The current head of the Saraswati order of monks is Gurumayi's brother Swami
Nityananda, who is the Mahamandeleshwar of the Saraswati Order.  This is the
brother that she personally directed a campaign of harrassment and threats
against for the last 7 years.

Philosphical debate is not taught in SYDA because if anyone there had
authentic thoughts that were not the product of mind control techniques,
battering, intimidation and totalitarian propaganda, someone might see that
the Empress Gurumayi is completely without clothes, let alone morals, values
or ethics.

Subj:  Re:Shankaracharya and SYDA 
Date:  96-02-06 11:44:50 EST
From:  Paul429283      

dissent i dunt no how u can say guru is not perfect and has no clothe on
because she is and i give her all my money that is extra and thank her every
day for what she give me. when she ask for money i give it like everyne does.
u are not spiritualy develuped enuf to see how perrrrfect she is so u have
too say nasty things to feel good. i am ahppy i give her money and think she
is pretty also. my whole life is thinking how perfect she is and so i feel
good. u shoudl think how pretty she is and u feel good too. everyone at the
asrm thinks like me so we are right and yu rare wrong. we are spiritualy
advanced souls.people who say bad things are fallen. we learn this truth at
ashrm. ibeen in there long time and say she is not naked empror but she has
nice clothes on. everone here agrees with me exceptt fallen people so go
away. buy intensive and u will understand!!!! thank you .


Subj:  Robert193
Date:  96-02-16 21:21:50 EST
From:  MDSNMAN         

Although there were several women who had an ongoing sexual relationship with
Nityananda when he was co-Guru in Siddha Yoga, Gurumayi singled out Hemananda
and had her physically beaten.  George and a few other siddha-sadists
participated.  Frank and Jeannie were witnesses (they were living next door
to Hemananda at the time).  But like all true servants of the one truth, they
looked the other way.  



Subj:  Re:MDSNMAN
Date:  96-02-17 10:39:23 EST
From:  Robert193       

Thanks, re: Hemananda.  I'm still curious about bulimia.  GM is an extremely
self-controlled person.  This is obvious and publicly observable.  What may
not be publicly observable is the flip side of self-control which is
indulging, binging, etc.  It's an interesting question.  She certainly has
two sides to her personality/ego/individuality. 

BTW, regarding Hola, this incident really isn't a bad reflection on GM,
except how she dealt with Hola's friends after the incident.  (She told
several of them to leave.)   But Hola's death itself was just a freak thing.
Hola was there at a staff darshan and GM was asking various people questions
and they were answering her.  Then she asked Hola who stood up, gave a short
answer, and then dropped dead without warning.  She must have had a heart
attack or something because she died instantly, never regaining
consciousness.  The bizzare thing about the incident was that it happened
right in front of GM.  

There is one thing interesting about the Hola affair: The silly pretense that
Hola died in the car on the way to the hospital, rather than in the ashram.
The reason for this silliness:  There was a statement that Baba once made
that no one should be born or die in the ashram.  So when Hola died in the
ashram, GM instructed everyone to pretend that the death didn't happen there.
But GM knew it did, and most of us who were in the ashram at the time knew it
did, so why all the pretense?  Who was she trying to fool and why?  This is a
very interesting question. 

The way I've come to understand it is this:  Siddha Yoga (and GM) are very
much caught up in superficial appearances.  It was hard for me to believe
this because it's the opposite of what they teach.  But it is true.  It was
very important for her to create the superficial appearance of Baba's word
being fulfilled.  There is a pathetic shallowness and desperation behind such
facades, whether they occur in "the world" or in an ashram.  

This incident is typical of something which occurs repeatedly in Siddha Yoga.
A big gesture is used to cover up a lower motive or attitude.  In Hola's case
the big gesture was the yagna they held for her afterwards.  The lower motive
was the charade of having her "die" in the car (being attached to a false
appearance) rather than in the ashram, and also sending her friends packing.
So  GM, with all the inner illumination she obviously has attained, is still
lost in appearances, or feels compelled beyond her control to create a
facade.  And the cost of that is the unravelling of SYDA which appears to be
happening (maybe slowly, but gaining momentum).


Subj: Looking for Doramir
Date:  96-02-18 07:46:17 EST
From:  Dissent222      

Doramir can be reached at:  an302429@anon.penet.fi

More than simply making sure Baba's words about it being inauspicious to die
in the ashram come true, Gurumayi lied about Hola's death to protect herself
from being blamed for it.  She does nothing without taking countermeasures to
make sure someone else and not she will ultimately be held accountable.  

She sets each and every syda policy there is  - including discourage people
with HIV from coming to the ashram and mistreat them if they do come; have
someone physically beaten; illegally smuggle money and goods out of the
country; bug someone's room with a hidden microphone; get someone's friends
to shun them; lie about someone's death; tear apart and destroy the
countryside and the water system; allow young women to be sexually abused and
demand that they keep it all a secret  -- the list is endless.  

But she always makes sure, and her loyal staff know just how to play the
game, that someone else claims that it was their idea, not Gurumayi's.
Gurumayi is so good at being a sadistic con-man because she is also a coward.

Many devotees come to know how totalistic GM is and how completely and
thoroughly she runs everyone and everything in the ashram.  Her control over
people is such, however, that they ignore her cruelty and selfishness, and
impute inscrutable divine motives to all her paranoid delusions.  In other
words, they play the perfect submissive masochist to her dominating sadist.  

You've read all the cult propaganda from syda, like Ram Butler's
Correspondence Course.  Anyone ever ask Ram what he thinks about adultery?
It's a subject he actually knows something about.  Just to round things out,
why not read the professional literature about destructive cults - The Wrong
Way Home (Deikman), Captive Hearts, Captive Minds (Tobias), Recovery From
Cults (Langone).  

Gurumayi's mission is to gain wealth and power for herself by gaining control
of people she can exploit.  She is just another con-man.  Open your eyes and
see.

Subj:  "in my experience . . . "
Date:  96-02-18 09:17:13 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear AOL readers, 

one reason the deluded won't open their eyes (as Dissent222 requests) is that
they are sneaky and deceptive themselves.  The first sign of sneaky status is
when SYDAites (present and former) talk about their "inner awareness" when
the going gets rough.  (--Thus reinforcing their perception of a dualism
between inner and outer realms, a dualism yoga is intended to dispel.)  They
say things like 

<<What I get from SYDA is a feeling of gratitude, though I am aware of the
gurus' criminal and hypocritical acts X, Y, and Z. My "inner" (read:
"narcissistic") feelings and experiences are all that matter in this world or
the next.>>

If someone wants to feel grateful about certain things, fine--I would never
advocate black-and-white mentality (even if their guru does, for example, in
her public villainization of her own brother, Nityananda Jr.). 

But it is a "no-brainer" to list some problems with the SYDA way of
rationalizing away abuses.  My points, having to do with the sociopathy of
knee-jerk "experience-believers," are these:

1.  these people hiding behind the "my experience is . . . " line absolutely
won't come clean and call a spade a spade.  In the thousands of pages on this
AOL board, few come clean.  Their lips cannot form the words.  They beat
around the bush, hurling gobs of solipsistic goo with every step.  That is
why I say they are sneaky and deceptive.  

2.  they use the idea of "whatever I think is true, is true" to rationalize
self-serving behavior in their real lives.  When your mental training is
finding ways to explain away SYDA to yourselves and others, you are pretty
well-oiled to become a trickster yourself.     

3.  they don't realize that using subjective sensations to explain away
abuses is exactly what marks them as a SYDA product (or facsimile thereof).
Their subjective "I feel, therefore it is" point of view is an obvious and
embarrasing sign of mental conditioning--even when they insist they aren't
disciples, and have moved on to a "personal" awareness.

4.  The sneaky and deceptive disciples didn't start out that way.  That is
why people should be more concerned with examining the qualifications and
"message" of the guru, rather than those of the ex-disciples.  Underneath
their mantle of brainwashing, the SYDA-stooges are probably quite different
people. 

5.  My guess is neither guru nor most disciples see anything "sneaky" about
their rationalizations.  In this respect they are less self-aware than your
average con-man.

Subj:  Re:Disent 222
Date:  96-02-18 16:34:06 EST
From:  Robert193       

Thanks 222.  I appreciate your sharp eye.  But there's something more
interesting going on in SY than just deception of devotees and lust for power
and money.  Much of the anger on this board can be traced back to being
taken, being deceived, being victimized, etc.  There is ample truth in that,
of course, but it is my belief that these low motives coexist in GM and the
SY leaders (including Ram B.) with a kind of sincere belief that they're
doing the right thing, that they are somehow serving the devotees in the best
way they can by doing all their shenannigans, and all the ruthless, deceitful
things they do.  

Here's the thing:  They deceived a lot of really decent people, but they also
deceive themselves.  Ram is lost in his own web which he has spun in the name
of truth, love and freedom.  This may be a little hard to believe if you have
been hurt by his cultic correspondence course, but I am certain that it is
true.  If you can believe that, you can take the next step and see that GM is
in the same fascinating delusion.  She does many loving things and many
wicked things and she is lost in her own maya of being a guru.  The point is
she *is* something, she subscribes her identity to being *something* and she
too is deceived by her own myth, by her own deception.  I am sure this is
true.

If it were so simple as to say that these are a bunch of unscrupulous people
with ugly motives, that would be tragic, but not all that interesting.  Those
of us who swallowed the lie along with the light would just rebel, get angry,
reclaim our valued individualaties, and move on.  But it isn't that simple.
GM and her chief people are lost in a kind of confusion that is very
fascinating.  Not that we should continue to drink from a stream after the
toxins in that stream have made us sick.  But this is a very remarkable thing
which Baba created and GM has epxanded.  

I'm no apologist, just a former follower who is still amazed and fascinated
by the maya which they created all in the name of bestowing the truth and
God's blessing on us.  Surely we must pity these people (and *marvel* at them
too) as we thank God we have become free from their very sticky webs of
illusion.  It is an amazing world, isn't it? 

Subj:  Re:Dissent 222
Date:  96-02-18 19:14:18 EST
From:  Dissent222      

I think Gurumayi is certainly trapped in her own web, as are others, --  as I
was when I lied to myself and others in the experience talks I gave, and in
conversations I had, extolling GM's praises, protecting and defending her.  I
knew I was lying and I believed my lies, with all sincerity, because GM could
not be held to any merely human standard of truthfulness, nor did I as her
protector and defender need to concern myself with a lie told on her behalf.

Here's a relevant quote from Nietzche:

"Men believe in the truth of all that is seen to be strongly believed.  In
all great decievers, a remarkable process is at work to which they owe their
power.  In the very act of deception with all its preparations - the dreadful
voice, the expression, the gestures - they are overcome by their belief in
themselves, and it is this belief which then speaks so persuasively, so
miracle-like to the audience.  Not only does he communicate that to the
audience but the audeince returns it to him and strengthens his belief."

In other words, what is important is not so much to believe, but to be seen
to believe.  The appearance of belief counts for more than the sincerity of
belief.  In the process of acting, the actor comes to believe his own act.
The mesmerist mesmerizes herself.  And the audience that buys it just gives
more conviction to the actor.  

Anyway, I don't like to spend too much time figuring GM out - I've got better
things to do.  But it's fun now and then to tell the truth out loud and
declare my freedom.

Subj:  Re:Dissent 222
Date:  96-02-18 21:07:54 EST
From:  Robert193       

Yes, that's excellent!  And that's why this guru/ashram/cult/ thing is so
fascinating.  It is purportedly about going beyond illusion.  And yet deep
inside this thing what you see is a desperate need to create illusion..  

The need to create appearances is so great in SY that entire sadhanas become
organized around appearance -- to oneself and to others.  And so many people
in the ashram get lost in that.  They are indeed very much spiritually
correct (according to siddha yoga standards) but they have become lost in
illusion and appearance.  People become very confused about who they are and
what they think.  They become lost in the name of self awareness or self
knowledge, and they declare their state to be spiritual attainment.  

One lesson I have learned over the years is to be very cautious about
crusaders.  Often the very thing which they crusade against lies unrecognized
within themselves.  I have seen this many times and I thought I understood
it.  And yet I was fooled by these gurus crusading against ignorance,  who
declared that they had become perfect, the highest human attainment.  I
really resisted recognizing that these people had big problems regarding
appearances, self honesty, and simple self acceptance.  It is true, though. 

Anyhow there is no way they could convince so many people that this might at
least *might* be true, unless they themselves believed it, or half believed
it, which is probably closer to the truth.  You say you don't like to
speculate about their psychologies, but it is good to do this.  It is freeing
in a way.  Not only did *you* get fooled by Baba, but Ram B. did too, and
Gurumayi did too, and even high ranking Brahmin priests.  Even Baba got
fooled by Baba.  The same goes for his glorious successor.  So it is a little
easier to have some self respect and maintain you dignity when you look at
these things.  

When you gave those brainwashed experience talks, you didn't compromise
yourself one fraction as much as she does when she tells her lies day in and
day out.  I would bet that she half believes most of her own lies.  What a
pitiful life.  No wonder she requires so much opulence and luxury.  All these
things just serve to buoy her up and keep her drunk on the illusion of her
perfection.  Of course she requires all those things.  Of course she has to
manipulate everything.  She must do everything to maintain the illusion for
both her devotees and herself.

You shouldn't feel bad.  You got away easy.  Look at all the true believers
who will go down with the ship.  I think it's very good to look at these
things.  It is a great experience to pass through such a thing and come out
unscathed.  I think it is even greater if we try to understand this thing we
have passed through.   

Subj:  Larry, ethics & missing money
Date:  96-02-19 10:18:48 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear Larry,

Your points are well taken, and having read your posts I feel we agree on
much even if our emphases and rhetorical styles differ.  One small quibble:
In calling me anti-subjective, you misunderstand.  As a pro-yoga person, I by
no means consider subjectivism and experience-based thought meaningless.
Rather the opposite.   

We both understand that SYDA views experience as a kind of untainted
primitive from which knowledge stems.  In the abstract, this concept is fine,
and there is a long philosophical tradition which recognizes it.  I
acknowledge it without qualification.  I'll go further--If the SYDA ship was
ship-shape, I would be happy to join everyone in their obsession with
epistemology and metaphysics.  

But the ship is not ship-shape.  Yoga epistemology and metaphysics are used
as a smoke screen behind which ugly motivations squirm about (as Robert and
Dissent have outlined).  

So though I acknowledge yogic subjectivism, I nonetheless say it is high time
that we all  redirect our attention to the atrophied limb of the SYDA
body--ethics.  It's time to shift attention to ethics.  Let's look at how
platitudes translate into behaviors, how high-falutin' dogma becomes a
rationale for misconduct.  

For example, here is an ethical question:  "Is SYDA collecting money under
false pretenses, e.g., the defunct Boston ashram fund?"

Just because I ask questions like this does not mean I am challenging
philosophical subjectivism.  To accuse me of that is to put words into my
mouth.  

My point is, a subjective stance should not be the foundation of philosophy
of denial; it should not be a way of rationalizing participation in an
unethical system.  Yogic truisms were not invented for the purpose of
discrediting those who ask common-sensical ethical questions.  On this I'm
sure we both agree.


Subj:  Larry, and allegations
Date:  96-02-19 21:13:49 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear Larry,

You say

<<<Most, if not all of the voices raging against SY in these boards
seem to come from those who put their emphasis on the personal
abuses allegedly committed by Gurumayi and "her chief people">>>


I agree that there is an emphasis on allegations.  That is unfortunate, for,
to my mind at least, the allegations are the least interesting component of
the travestization of yoga seen in SYDA.  (This is not to say that I condone
the abuses, of course.)

Why their emphasis on allegations?  In my perception, some of the critics
seem to be operating under the assumption that allegations are the best tool
for piercing the thick hide of SYDA brainwashing.   

Based on the reactions they have gotten, it seems that even the voicing of
allegations is only of limited success in the piercing of thick,
mind-controlled hides.  If those hides weren't so thick, there would be more
reform by now.  For goodness sakes, how much "abuse" do people have to hear
and see and read about and discuss before they drop the denial trip?  

Frankly, your reference to her attainment possibly not being "100%" is so
euphemistic that it has the odor of denial to it.  (If I'm off-base here, of
course let me know.)  Surely you would agree that the idea of her
"attainment," 100% or otherwise, is the bathwater to be discarded and not the
baby (to use your cliche).  

I bring up your euphemistic tone to make a point about some of the SYDA
critics online--I think it is the euphemizing tone of SYDA apologists that
makes SYDA critics focus on allegations.  

One problem about critics focusing on allegations is, if they get too
specific about personal recollections, the SYDA stooges might "triangulate"
on their positions.   The critics' anonymity limits their ability to provide
full eyewitness accounts.

I think these dissenters could say a whole lot more if their audience was
more sympathetic and less thick-hided, and if they didn't have to worry about
stooges hunting them down.

Subj:  About being angry
Date:  96-02-20 07:05:57 EST
From:  Dissent222      

Some of the people who leave syda say they leave with everything all
"resolved" within themselves, feeling "free" of anger.  

I will never be free of the anger I have toward Guruamyi, Baba and SYDA, for
betraying me, and for the specific and protracted abuse I receieved directly
from Gurumayi.  I am angry about this 3 years after leaving, and I will
always be.  I spent more than 10 years of my life being swindled and deceived
in syda, and the struggle to recover these lost years, emotionally,
financially, and spiritually, has been enormous.  It is a struggle I am
succeeding with, slowly, step by step, using my own skills and talents and
the support and love of the few friends I still have left who I didn't
alienate because of living in the ashram for 10 years.  Maybe others who did
not become as dependent as I did in syda who later left are able to be more
appreciative of what they got there.  I am not.  Was my dependency my fault?
It was my mistake,  and it was also skillfully fostered by Gurumayi.  I'm
paying for my mistake every day.  Gurumayi isn't paying nearly enough, in my
opinion.

The way I have resolved things and become free is to express my anger.  Anger
(and ambivalence) are very uncomfortable for many people.  They are meant to
be abolished by mantra repetition, chanting, seva, and complete dependency on
the guru.  I no longer consider it desirable to abolish feelings and parts of
myself.  I consider "resolution" to mean the ability to feel a wide range of
feelings, including anger and ambivalence; and to attempt to both contain and
express these emotions appropriately, to one's self and others.  This is
exactly what is forbidden in Gurumayi's dictatorship, and this repression is
why so many of her managers and swamis are so frequently ill, with eating
disorders, depression, hypochondriacal conditions, anxiety, and more.

So while I appreciate the voices of other dissenters here, I wonder why some
seem to need to soothe, make things nice, and in a sense patronize those who
they feel have not attained their higher state?    


Subj:  Dissent222 & SYDA prattle
Date:  96-02-20 08:39:11 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

Dissent222,

You write

<<<So while I appreciate the voices of other dissenters here, I wonder why
some seem to need to soothe, make things nice, and in a sense patronize those
who they feel have not attained their higher state?>>>   

A couple of ideas on this--First, a 

SAMPLE OF SOOTHING PRATTLE: <<< "After I chanted, I felt good, THEREFORE I
have no more doubts, and realize that the New Yorker article is not relevant
to my reality, just like Ram Butler tells me.  If only those dissenters were
spiritually-oriented, they would understand that being a Hitler-stooge can be
a learning experience, if you are high enough to grasp the subtle truth of
it.  Oops--there goes my signal watch.  Time to go practice the Sieg Heil arm
gesture that is now the fad kriya in group chanting at the ashram.  Ah, isn't
life orderly!">>>


1.  PLAYING GURU.  A patronizing tone is part of the "playing guru"
routine--the aping the guru shtick that many SYDAites internalize early on.
SYDA's traveling advice-givers are fortunately clogged up enough that they
cannot smell their own embarrassing aroma (though everyone else can).   A
license to have a superiority complex is one of the selling points of SYDA
(ostentatious shows of humility are very much part of this superiority
complex, needless to say.)  

Boss-woman has written the book on the patronizing tone.  "And thank you very
much for your very nice question."

2.  NUMBING ONE'S CRITICAL FACULTIES. Making all things nice and sugary for
others is an exercise in rationalization.  If they stop making those "cooing"
sounds, they'll hear their inner voice say--"You've been had."  That's why
they've got to keep up the mental Brownian motion. 

3.  PHOBIC RITUALS.  Just like a compulsive person who has to wash their
hands incessantly to ward of phobic reactions, the inner prattle must be
maintained inside and out.  It's bothersome to be within earshot of it, but
we don't have it too bad--just think if we were one of their kids, or
parents!  (Fortunately, kids are better at shrugging off "weird" parents than
some give them credit for.) Indeed, chanting and "guided" meditation are
other tools for warding off the troublesome inner voices of conscience and
common-sense. 

4.  INABILITY TO DISCUSS THE PHILOSOPHY OF POSITIVE THINKING EXCEPT IN THE
CONTEXT OF A SYDA-DEPENDENT STANCE. What these folks can't realize is that
everyone (except perhaps an institutionalized moron or two) grasps the
philosophy of positive thinking--who could miss it, it has absolutely
saturated pop culture!  Their need to "remind" everyone of how to see the
bright side of things WITH REGARD TO SYDA is a defense mechanism so deeply
lodged that I sincerely believe they don't recognize it as such.  Note that
their "positive" outlook is always firmly attached to and framed in terms of
the SYDA thought-system.  

Subj:  To Larry.  1 of 2
Date:  96-02-19 18:01:06 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 1 OF 2

Dear Larry,

Thanks for your response.  

Larry, you write

<<I would love to see a real ethics shake-up happen within SYDA from the top
down. Something to make everybody come clean and get past the cover-ups and
games would be freeing to all involved.>>

There have been many attempts at direct communication with the "top" in SYDA.
As I'm sure you know, people who touch on uncomfortable issues are warned
and/or ejected from the ashram.  This includes people "at the top," who
suggest the wrong things.  In some cases there is follow-up damage
control--discrediting of the individual ejected (sometimes through whisper
campaigns), and even threats, sometimes veiled, sometimes not. In short, no
one has yet been able to find a way to make the top-down approach work.  Now
that incoming mail is being routinely burned, the lines of communication have
gone from ridiculous to absurd.  To many, the gag-order policy is the best
evidence for assessing the motivations behind the organization.

SEE PART 2
Subj:  To Larry.  2 of 2
Date:  96-02-19 18:03:39 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 2 OF 2

Dear Larry, you write

 <<But your posts and many of the other dissenters seemed to be aimed at
trying to shake things up "from the bottom up" and in the process I think a
lot of people get hurt.>>

If you could expand on this, I would appreciate it.  A disagreement between
what is hurtful and what is healing seems to be at the root of much of the
banter in this chat area.  In general, the dissenters strike me as sincere in
believing that their point of view might save others from hurt.   So what is
hurtful, it seems, is exactly what is being debated here on AOL.  To take as
a premise that dissenters' have hurtful intentions is to miss the point.  (I
recognize that you aren't making this assumption, but others, such as Paul,
seem to have.)  The chatter on this AOL board is a simple case of information
and opinion exchange, the kind that just cannot happen under the authorized
SYDA roof.

As Kai has correctly pointed out, SYDA thrives even as it metamorphosizes,
and in my view will continue to thrive (for a while at least)--for a mixture
of reasons, not all of them benign.  Given the bustling present state of the
organization, it seems unclear that the noise made by a few shadowy outsiders
is a cause of anything, hurtful or otherwise, at the institutional level.

Larry, I'll get to the point now.  The chatter on this board is more of an
effect than a cause.  If SYDA experiences problems in the future, they will
be of its own making.  SYDA is creating its own future.  The messages here,
both pro and con, are merely a "trace" of a SYDA effect, produced by SYDA
itself--that is, by how Gurumayi treats people.  One should not overestimate
the extent to which the lifecycle of SYDA, and the perception of its
followers, is a function of the actions of people outside of SYDA--including
SYDA critics on AOL.   Just as was the case with Rajneesh and Da Free John,
SYDA has the might to mold its own destiny.  Whether that destiny is bright
or dismal depends precisely on how they respond to the issues raised on this
board.

The dissenters here are just a sample for an ex-SYDA population that is an
order of magnitude larger than the present-day followers of SYDA (as simple
arithmetic indicates).  As time passes, there will be an accumulation of
dissenting voices.  Sevites who are used up and discarded will be the most
vocal of these critics.  It seems that for critics to speak out as they have
(on AOL or elsewhere) is what one would expect, given their experience.  What
else but the sound of dissent is to be expected, given SYDA's treatment of
disciples?

This combination of growth, change, dissent, and decline is an inevitable
part of the lifecycle of pop religious groups with problematic leadership.
Perhaps with a radical change of policy, and some potent confessions from the
top, SYDA's future might be brightened.  Perhaps it is too late for such a
reversal. 

Yogic culture, like nature, has a way of renewing itself.  The spirit behind
yoga will not be harmed by any of this.  Yoga, and the experiences of yoga,
will continue apace regardless.  On this happy point I know both you and I
agree!  Which is precisely why all should boldly move forward with
straightforwardness, without fear that straight talk is somehow injurious,
hurtful, or inappropriate.  It just isn't.

Subj:  Re:Kaiwahine
Date:  96-02-19 19:29:18 EST
From:  Robert193       

Hi Kai.  Thanks for your response.

>>Come on tour,to a talk,a program,an intensive and see for 
  yourself by the numerous overflow rooms how Siddha Yoga 
  is unravelling.lol and aloha,kai<<

I actually said SYDA (not Siddha Yoga) is unravelling, and 
I think it is. SYDA is like a huge building supported by weak 
timbers.  Many of the competent and capable people have 
already left and the exodus continues.  An organization can 
survive that sort of thing only if it responds to the cause of 
the problem, if it successfully addresses why so many good, 
sincere, honorable long term devotees have left.  

Yes, I'm sure Gurumayi's tour is filled with light, love, and 
powerful inner experiences.  But those things alone won't keep 
the strong, self-respecting honorable people in Siddha Yoga long 
enough for them to become part of the organizational structure of 
SYDA.  Yes, many new people will come in because of the tour.
But many won't stay unless there is a rock solid ground floor of 
morality and common decency in SYDA, in the ashrams, and around 
Gurumayi.  All the light and warmth and inner experience at the 
programs and in darshan will fade dimly into memory when such
people clearly see the duplicity and the ethical vacuum which 
surround Gurumayi.

Why have such people left GM and why do they continue to leave?
Not because they lacked meditation experiences -- they had plenty
of them.  Not because their hearts weren't opened and filled with
love during darshan -- they were.  They leave despite these things
because at the core of their individualities they are grounded in
a morality that they are not willing to discard.  

Do you think this is "wrong attachment" Kai?  Do you think it is
a mistake to maintain attachment to the part of our individuality
that connects us to our Western spiritual heritige?  It is only
because we are all rooted in that heritage that we were willing to 
embrace what we saw when we first came to Siddha Yoga.  No, that
part of our individuality should not be renounced.  Not for love,
not for Gurumayi's attention, not for the inner lights.  If those
good and wondrous things come at the cost of that which roots us
in our spiritual heritage we should walk away from them.      

We will see over time what happens to SYDA, to Siddha Yoga, and
to Gurumayi.  It's not necessary to bash Gurumayi, or to bash Siddha
Yoga.  We all came with our neediness and we all have received much.
Only this is necessary:  When we come face to face with the core 
of who we are as individuals we must decide how we are willing to
engage ourselves in the world, including that part of the world
which surrounds Gurumayi. 


Subj:  Re:Kaiwahine and Robert
Date:  96-02-19 20:33:48 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

Robert193,

Thank you for the thoughtful post.  Everything you say rings right.    

So true--the injuries SYDA feels do not come from without, but, rather, are
self-inflicted.   Boss-woman's paranoia about outsider talk and about the
popularity of other gurus is just a symptom of terminal spiritual dementia.

So true--one need not bash.  One can simply buy some popcorn, take a seat,
and watch the "Fall of the House of (philosophical and ethical) Mush-er." (I
couldn't resist latching onto your architectural metaphor!)  Let us hope that
most stand clear of the falling debris.

Subj:  Re:LarryOm
Date:  96-02-20 00:44:22 EST
From:  Robert193       


Hi Larry, thanks for your thoughtful response to my posts.  

What makes the discussion on this board (and the sadhana of the 
understanding which it represents) so interesting is that it is 
not easy to see this thing clearly. You can look through one eye 
and see it all one way ("only your inner experience matters and 
we've all had profound inner experiences...").  Or you can look at 
it through the other eye and see all the misdeeds and inexcusable 
things ("Siddha Yoga is rotten and bad and you should run away 
fast...").  Can you look through both eyes and see it clearly in
focus?  This is a worthwhile undertaking.

You are already struggling very nicely with this thing and I think
you should continue to do so.  Here's why:  If you embrace Siddha
Yoga completely, knowing what you know, and force yourself to follow
the path of blind devotion, you are denying a part of yourself,
practicing self obfuscation in the name of self knowledge.  While
many people do this, there is a tragic element in it.  Tragedy
cannot be swept under the rug forever, it always re-emerges to 
collect its toll.

On the other hand, what if you just run away angry?  How many things
have you ever run away from that you were ever really finished with?
Running away, by itself, doesn't get you to freedom.  It only gets you
to a temporary safe place.  From there you can then get to freedom, 
that is if you still remember that you want to get there. 

I have seen people run away from disturbed relationships only to 
take on some of the very qualities of the person they were running
away from.  They ran away and then failed to do the sadhana of the
understanding.  We all have blind spots and it is very easy to do 
this.  This can be tragic too, and it often is.  

I have even seen people close to me run away from spiritual teachers 
and gurus (not Siddha Yoga) and do this.  I watched a close friend 
do this once, and I tried to warn her, but she proceded to take on 
some of the worst characteristics of the guru she ran away from, 
never realizing how manipulative and phony she had become. 

So what's the alternative?  Can you find one?  I don't think it is 
easy, but I do think it's worth trying.  Here's one suggestion:  You
can pursue you spiritual beliefs and practices, and participate in
Siddha Yoga activities with both eyes open.  The only way I know of
to do this is with your own integrity clearly in view, and by taking
ashram experiences, or other Siddha Yoga experiences in small
portions.  

This means you need lots of time away from organized SY activities, 
time with others who are honest with themselves, and time alone.  I 
have found that this leads to self knowledge and self respect growing
within me.  That is what yoga is all about, isn't it?  

There is a kind of self knowledge we can get in the ashram, an inner
space of awareness and healing.  This is a blessing but it is not the 
only blessing.  And it is not the only thing we need to nourish our 
souls unless we have completed all our other spiritual work, all our
lessons. I am very grateful for my time in the Siddha Yoga ashrams, 
I am grateful that I came to Gurumayi, and I am grateful that I left.

I lived in the ashram with both eyes open for almost a year and I
continued to be very involved in Siddha Yoga for about two years after
that before I finally walked away.  I am very glad I did this sadhana
of the understanding and didn't just go away angry and confused.    
It isn't worth it to invest so much of yourself in something only to
have it remain unresolved inside you.  The lessons will just have 
to be learned another time in another context.   

Good luck to you.    ---- R.

Subj:  Re: p.s. to LarryOm
Date:  96-02-20 00:51:41 EST
From:  Robert193       

You wrote,

>> (I don't know what specifics of Ram Butler's course you were
   referring to--I've seen little there if any that has to do 
   with all this stuff).<<

The problem with the correspondence course is that Ram himself
doesn't really believe a lot of what he writes.  There was a time 
when he put himself into it completely, as he was.  He didn't feel
like he was representing SYDA or the ashram.  He just called it like 
he saw it.  Then around 1984 Gurumayi told him that even if he didn't 
feel like he was a representative of SYDA and the ashram, the people
who read the course saw him that way and he should write the course
with that in mind.  

After that the course became more stilted and spiritually correct
(that old appearance thing again!), and Ram has been plagued with self
doubt and inner conflict.  The course continued to retain some of 
its excellence, but it lost most of its simple honesty and freshness.
Ram knows this and he is quietly anguished about it.  He tries 
mightily to follow Baba's command (that the course should be so strong
that no one could doubt it) and to serve Gurumayi.  But he knows he 
has compromised himself.  I stopped taking the course before I moved
out of the ashram.

Maybe it would have better if Baba just told him the course should be
very strong, not that it should be so strong that no one could doubt it. 
We mortals have a hard time living up to superlatives.   


Subj:  Re:To Larry.  2 of 2/Dissent 
Date:  96-02-21 11:24:10 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

Larry, 

thanks for your posts.  Larry you write

 << I've gotten too much out of SY to feel anything other than that there is
more good than bad in it.>>

My response is:  I don't buy that good experiences for some = adequate
validation of SYDA Foundation.  Then we could justify Shoko Asahara
(nerve-gas guru).  Some kind of ethical criteria has to be taken into
account.  One of SYDA's core ideas, that the leader is a perfect human and
the path is spontaneously perfect, and all the ideas that feed into that core
idea, have caused serious injury to many (not all)--as Dissent has outlined.
And there is much else there that is systematically misleading.  (I don't
mean to say that these kind of ideas are  dead wrong in theory--just that
their implementation in SYDA is.)

The question is:  can't we all "get a lot out of life" without having to
depend upon an unscrupulous organization?  Without having to either believe
in lies, or condone the practice of systematic lying? Wouldn't you agree that
talking about SYDA euphemistically is to be an accomplice in the lying, in a
small way?

Larry, you yourself have beautifully said elsewhere something to the effect
that "the good is in US--not in it" (SYDA organization's trappings).  So why
do you backtrack now in the passage I just quoted--where you say "there is
more good than bad in it."  

Larry, you say  <<Maybe I'm just wishing there were a place where we COULD
come together and air the dirty laundry in the kind of spirit Kripalu did
when they ousted Amrit Desai after his history of sexual misconduct was
finally admitted to years later>>

I (Howie) agree.  

One last comment, not directed at Larry, but at everyone here.

Didn't Dissent's last post make everyone's heart ache?  Why can't we respond
to comments like Dissent's with empathy (even those who disagree)--why must
statements like Dissent's always FIRST trigger a critical analysis of the
dissenter's "mental competence" and credibility, and then lead into guruish
advice-giving?  It appears that Dissent has had a lifetime dosage of advice
from gurus and guru-wannabes--can't you sense that? 

Why play back tired guru-babble scripts to people who have not only read them
all, but possibly written some of them?  There are other ways to engage
another human being.  My main point is:  where is the compassion? Or is SYDA
really nonempathetic, and just about "me me me"--"about me and my
experiences"? 

Larry, thanks again for your forthrightness.



Subj:  Re:Is Ram B. propaganda?
Date:  96-02-21 14:09:51 EST
From:  Dissent222      

Ram B. may be propaganda, but what about "TRUST YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE?"  How
about that one for the perfect weapon of repression.

What does that actually mean?  "Trust your own experience" is the answer to
anyone who raises doubts, or questions, or fears.  The problem with this is
that the doubts, questions and fears ARE YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE!!!!  So what is
really being said is "Do NOT trust your own experience, i.e., your doubts,
questions and fears.  Only trust and believe what I want you to and command
you to.  Your doubts, fears and questions are not you, they are some alien
evil things that you should disregard, deny, ignore."  So "Trust your own
experience" simply means "ONLY think good things about the perfect Guru who
is God incarnate; never have doubts, fears or questions about the guru.  If
you do, you will be excommunicated, and if you are excommunicated, terrible
things will happen to you.  Perhaps the most terrible of all will be that you
will lose your identity - you will lose Me."  So even if you see lies and
abuse right before your own eyes, do not trust what you saw and heard, ONLY
trust your unwavering devotion to me.  Remember, I am perfect; any flaw you
may notice is YOUR flaw, not mine."

This is the kind of mind control used in SYDA which has been remarkably
successful.  But you can't really function as a human being by annihilating
your thoughts and feelings and idolizing someone else as an absolute.  It all
falls apart, sooner or later.  This is what is known as masochism.  As Peter
Berger has written in "The Sacred Canopy,":

"The masochistic attitude is inherently predestined to failure, because the
self cannot be annihilated this side of death, and because the other can only
be absolutized in illusion."

You REALLY want liberation?  Trust your doubts and fears about Gurumayi and
SYDA.  It does wonders.

Subj:  Re:Dissent222 & SYDA prattle
Date:  96-02-21 00:23:55 EST
From:  Larryom         

>>Indeed, chanting and "guided" meditation are other tools for warding off
the troublesome inner voices of conscience and common-sense<<

Is that what you think of these particular practices in any context?  If,
after chanting,  I  neglected to even think about whatever may have been
troubling before chanting, I'd say your idea had some merit.  But generally I
find that after chanting I am better equipped mentally to tackle the very
issues of conscience you seem to feel chanting was an attempt to evade.

This  is a simple example of how the same practices don't work equally well
or in exactly the same way for all practitioners.  Or even the same way on
each occassion--some chants affect the same people in different ways at
different times; different chants affect us differently and uniquely too.  

Much of your previous post was deliberately insulting.  I don't know why
people love to compare any group activity they can't endorse to Nazis. It
seems to me the surest way to lose any power of persuasion with or respect
from the ones  whom you are supposedly trying to show the error of their ways
would be to make such insulting insinuations.  Is it supposed to shock them
or just get others to laugh along (with you) at them?  

If I soft-peddle my criticisms of Gurumayi & Siddha Yoga it is because I have
a lot of respect for those who sincerely believe and are practicing in a
heartfelt way. 

Subj:  Re:Dissent222 & SYDA prattle
Date:  96-02-21 11:30:31 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

Larry, thanks for your notes.

Larry, you say <<<Much of your previous post was deliberately insulting.  I
don't know why people love to compare any group activity they can't endorse
to Nazis.>>> 

I agree with you: gratuitous Nazi comparisons are dumb.  But come on Larry,
you've been to the ashram chants.  The Nazi comparison has been mentioned to
me by others!  What I am referring to is, the tendency for people to do the
"Heil Hitler" arm gesture while chanting.  Often people go "Heil Hitler" with
their arms, all together, at points of accent in a chant.  In the context of
a mob worshipping a God-person sitting in an elevated chair in the front of
an public hall, the Hitlerian similarity is IMPOSSIBLE to not notice.  You'd
have to be blind not to make a Hitler connection.  Hey, if someone brought
their European grandmother down to see the ashram chant, she'd probably have
a heart attack when the "Heil Hitler" routine begins!  Again, others have
mentioned the "Heil Hitler" gesture to me without me bringing up the subject.


The "Heil Hitler" gesture makes SYDA look bad to visitors.  One simple SYDA
reform is--let's cool it with the "Heil Hitler" arm gesture while chanting.
So you see that my Hitler comparison was not gratuitous.  I was being
literal.  

I wasn't trying to be ominous or deep with the Hitler comparison.  That arm
gesture is funny, don't you think!  I'm sure that you, Larry, probably
chuckle at the oddities down at the ashram yourself from time to time.

As to your other point.  My post was NOT intended to insult whatever, and I
stand by every shred of what I say.  I say it as straight as I can without
beating around the bush.  I do use metaphors as shortcuts, and don't
apologize for that since that is part of standard English.  If you disagree
with me, then great--let's talk about the content of our posts.  But I never
intend to insult.  

Larry you say, after I note how practices are used to "brain-stop," 

<<Is that what you think of these particular practices (chanting and
meditation) in any context?>>

My answer is no.  Of course no.  And I agree with what you say about the
variability of responses to chanting.  

What I was driving at is:  SYDA has travestized the wonderful universe of
yogic practices.  For example, "dakshina" is a concept that is easily
travestized (in any religious tradition).  To me, the carefully crafted
travestization enacted by SYDA is its most fascinating aspect, and the most
fascinating aspect of pop religious movements in general.  It's more
interesting than the allegations.  Weird monster offspring of cultural
traditions are spawned in this way.  

For example, sales pitches like this become possible: 

SALES PITCH--"If you want the rare, one in a million experience of having a
personal and eternal bond to a world-Sadguru, take initiation from an
authorized television set (a TV intensive) for the mere price of $399.95,
payable in cash or money order at the registration desk."

If people want to buy said product, that is fine--this is America.  But don't
be surprised if onlookers characterize this as a travestization of the
guru-shishya tradition.



Subj:  Re:To Larry and Howie
Date:  96-02-21 14:26:42 EST
From:  Dissent222      

Thank you both for commenting on my post about anger.  

Larry, please note that I remain angry about SYDA, but I am joyful about many
other aspects of my life, which I communicate and share with many other
people in many other places.  Here, I take the opportunity to state my
feelings and share my experiences about SYDA.  It gets a lot of response.
Nityananda and Gurumayi both read it all, from what I've heard.  Many others
also read it, as well as the Open Letters in the Hinduism File Library.
Telling the truth helps people, and I am telling the truth.  I got into SYDA
because I love truth and I wanted to help people.  I got out of it for
exactly the same reasons.

Tyrannical dictators are usually not susceptible to change and reform, but
they have, in the past, been overthrown through protest that starts with
underground resistance.  I am thoroughly convinced that Gurumayi will never
have the courage to be accountable for her deception and cruelty, so I do my
thing with this little underground protest.  Gurumayi and Baba ARE Siddha
Yoga, and neither of them have ever truly practiced what they teach.  They
are not what they have claimed to be.  So keep the teachings you like; I like
some of them myself.  Baba and Gurumayi didn't make up any of those
teachings, they ripped them off from all over the place.  They don't own
those teachings - they have betrayed those teachings.


Subj:  Re:Appropriate Anger
Date:  96-02-21 20:30:01 EST
From:  MDSNMAN         

Dissent's comments regarding anger toward SYDA and its tyranical rulers are
right on the mark.  I share that anger, but honestly also feel more than a
little foolish at having become so entangled in the webwork of lies that
define siddha yoga.  How is it that educated, intelligent, more or less
rational people, who in most any other aspect of their lives think clearly
and act rationally, become so willing to literally abandon their minds,
forego liberty (in the US of all places) and join circus siddha yoga while
their friends and family watch with open-mouthed amazement?  This is a great
puzzle to me.  Whatever it is, it provides the Babas and Gurumayis and Jim
Jones of this world a never-ending supply of power, money and narcissistic
pleasure.  It would be funny if it didn't mean that peoples lives were
sacrificed in the process.

Anyway, it is nice to have found this forum where at least a few of us can,
with ample and rightous justification vent our anger and share what we came
to know about SYDA through our years of service to Twisted Sister and her
perverse lineage.  Just wish it could reach a few more folks who are just now
being sucked into the toilet as they lay their first $500 or $1000 on the
registration counter. (No personal checks, please)     

Subj:  Re:Larry -- Ram B's course  
Date:  96-02-21 20:22:06 EST
From:  Robert193       


Ram's correspondence course *is* cultic.  As Disent222 pointed out,  

>>"Trust you own experience" is the answer to anyone who raises doubts, or
questions, or fears.  The problem with that is that the doubts, questions and
fears ARE YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE!!!!  So what is really being said is "Do NOT
trust your own experience....<<

I think Dissent is right about this.  In SY and the correspondence course,
"Your own experience" has come to mean those experiences which are expansive
or positive.  In other words, experiences which would appear to validate or
support SY.  Experiences other than these are labled "kriyas" which are not
to be taken seriously or acted upon.  

The correspondence course leads its readers to compartmentalize their
experience into "valid" experiences (which are supportive of SY) and "kriyas"
(which are non-valid experiences).  It leads them to *redefine* themselves in
terms of  their experiences in the first category:  "Who I really am" is
limited to those feelings and experiences which are supportive of SY.
People who follow this teaching of Ram's will deal with their doubts and
questions by saying, "That's not really me, that's only a kriya."  When they
are confronted with the disturbing truths about SY they will say, "These
things are not true," or they will say "These things just bring up kriyas.
They are intrusions which lead me away from my 'experience', hence they are
not real."

This is definitely a form of mind control.  It is brainwashing.  That is why
the correspondence course is cultic.  

There are many good things about the correspondence course.  It offers a lot
of useful perspectives and there is a lot of sincerity and honesty in it.  I
think that is why it appeals to so many people.  But then the course goes
overboard and plunges into cultish brainwashing.  Most readers probably
resist that aspect of the course.  But Ram offers so many good things in the
course that he seduces people into trying out the brainwashed perspective, at
first nibbling on it, then swallowing it whole.

I believe Ram himself is half brainwashed by his own writings.  He tries so
desperately to convince his readers to live in the brainwashed perspective.
This makes me think he is really trying to convince *himself* to live in that
perspective.  If he was really there (like many hard core devotees are), he
wouldn't be torn by inner conflict and anguish.  But I think he *is* torn
apart inside.  He puts all his energy into forcing himself into being
something totally contrary to his nature, which is an iconoclast, a maverick,
a free spirit.  I pity Ram and I have prayed for him many times. 



Subj:  Dissent222/ SYDA dictatorship
Date:  96-02-22 08:15:00 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

Dissent222, with your characteristic clarity and balance of mind you write:

<<<Tyrannical dictators are usually not susceptible to change and reform, but
they have, in the past, been overthrown through protest that starts with
underground resistance.  I am thoroughly convinced that Gurumayi will never
have the courage to be accountable for her deception and cruelty>>>

In SYDA, change won't come from within.  There is nothing that is inhibiting
Gurumayi's behavior.  She has so much power and is so insulated from the
outside world of laws and press, that she can and will continue  to run amok.
This is because the disciples go along with ANYTHING, no matter how contrary
it is to logic or conscience.  It's a case of absolute power combined with
zero conscience.

It seems clear that she really learned that THE DISCIPLES WILL SWALLOW
ANYTHING during the period in which she wrested the SYDA fortune and
dictatorship from her simpleton brother's hands.  At first, her actions
showed a bit of caution.  Her statements show that she was worried about how
the disciples might react to the fact that she was caught with her pants
down.  She was worried that no amount of expensive spin doctoring could be
bought to make her prat fall stop hurting. And swamis, disciples, and
trustees did indeed leave in disgust during this period.

BUT LO AND BEHOLD!  The disciples proved themselves to be as malleable as
clay, as herdable as sheep.  Incredibly, they bought any and all nonsense
that was printed on SYDA letterhead.  Reasonable statements by others that
were not printed on SYDA letterhead were ignored as "kriyas."  

The instant dictator-types recognize the extent of human gullibility, the
efficiency of lawyers, and the intimidating power of thugs, their sociopathy
is going to go into overdrive.  

Can you imagine the moment she realized THE DISCIPLES WILL SWALLOW ANYTHING?
She probably thought the rush that came from that moment was
self-realization! ! !  And SYDA went from bad to worse in a giant leap.

Subj:  Robert/SYDA brainwashing
Date:  96-02-22 07:43:59 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear Robert,

I don't add anything new here to your last wonderful post--the post about
SYDA's use of Ram Butler as a hired brainwasher--except an afterthought. 

You say

<<<"Who I really am" is limited to those feelings and experiences which are
supportive of SY. . . This is definitely a form of mind control.  It is
brainwashing.  That is why the correspondence course is cultic.  . . the
course goes overboard and plunges into cultish brainwashing.  Most readers
probably resist that aspect of the course.>>>

What about those who, in your words, "resist that aspect of the course"? Many
who notice the brainwashing nonetheless exhibit spiritual dependency and
superstitous fears.  Many who privately chuckle or grumble about the cultish
aspects of SYDA nonetheless believe that "something bad will happen" if they
face those "negative" perceptions of SYDA.   They might "lose their shakti,"
or "the bogeyman might get them."  They remain silent and refocus their
attention because there is a fear of negative sanctioning "on the astral
plane," and a fear of "loss of love/bliss/etc." 

If people who notice SYDA's brainwashing stay silent, it suggests they are
spiritually dependent on some level.  Otherwise they would act with clarity,
instead of muddling about with complex denials and rationalizations.  The
same holds for people who sugarcoat SYDA's faults using improvised
"experience talks"--i.e., public "confessions" of their attainments and
acquisitions--as pap.  

People who euphemize about SYDA's "indiscretions" reveal their spiritual
dependency.  This population is well represented on this AOL board.  On some
level these people feel that they can't afford to lose SYDA.  For those who
claim they are "casuals" or "exs" but still exhibit brainwashing, they fear
losing the circuitry that SYDA has installed in their brains--the circuitry
they are now running their lives on.  And of course there are those who are
afraid of incurring the wrath of the SYDA "spirit"--the superstitious,
magical thinking types.  

Though all these people insist that they are quite rational and sane and
sometimes describe themselves as ex-SYDAites or as casual philosophical
types, they doth "protest too loudly." Under their exoskeletons of sanity are
SYDA enablers, SYDA apologists, SYDA addicts, SYDA stooges--in a word:  SYDA
yogis. 

It is heartening to see that you (Robert), Dissent, and others can see
through the cover stories of the spiritually dependent, and express what you
see so splendidly.   (By the way, I don't mean healthy spirituality.  I'm
talking unhealthy dependency.)

Subj:  Re: To Kaiwahine part 1 of 2
Date:  96-02-22 15:37:02 EST
From:  Robert193       

Aloha Kai, or howdy as they say in my part of the country.  You said about
your involvement in SY:  

>>I have become so much more who I really am and so much stronger in my own
self and more willing and able to speak my truth.<<  

I believe that.  We all got something good out of our involvement in Siddha
Yoga.  There is indeed something good about the ashram and our experience in
it, and about the practices.  We weren't fools to have seen the good in
Siddha Yoga and to have embraced its path.  The folly comes in surrendering
to an unethical, decietful, abusive person.  If we don't know at first that
Gurumayi is such a person, that isn't folly, only naivity.  But once we learn
the secret truths about her, it is very foolish and dangerous to put
ourselves in her hands, to become dependent on her, to surrender to her.

We all embraced SY because there was something good to be found there, many
good things.  This is true of other paths too. There is a time and a reason
to become involved with a path like Siddha Yoga, and there is a time and a
reason to leave such a path.  There are some people who were wise enough to
come when it was time to come and to leave when it was time to leave.  Some
of the anger you see on this board results from people staying far too long,
many years after it was time to leave.  I stayed involved with Siddha Yoga a
few years longer than I should have.  

Even Steve Hassan (author of the book COMBATTING CULT MIND CONTROL) says that
he had some good experiences in the Moonie cult -- there were some good,
genuine spiritual aspects to that cult.  He says that in some ways he
benefitted from his involvement in that cult in the 1970's.  He also says
that this cult is extremely dangerous and destructive, and he is now one of
Americas leading experts on cults and the problems associated with them.   

The point is to see things realistically, in a grown up way, not black and
white like a child or a person without discrimination.  It's not that Siddha
Yoga is all bad.  It certainly isn't.  If  Steve Hassan can say that there
were some genuinely good things in the Moonie cult, how can someone deny that
there are good things about Siddha Yoga and its guru?  But the good things in
Siddha Yoga are not the only things in Siddha Yoga and it would be foolish to
pretend otherwise.

You also said:   >>why have so many people left you ask?Many who were
ashramites now live in "the world" practicing Siddha Yoga and supporting
Gurumayi's mission,as do I.<<

There are also *many* good people who have left SY completely, who don't want
anything to do with Gurumayi.  Some of these people are angry because they
had been deceived and exploited.  I don't think it is a good idea to ignore
this or to make excuses for it.

Subj:  Re: To Kaiwahine part 2 of 2
Date:  96-02-22 15:42:36 EST
From:  Robert193       


-- continued --

As for our spiritual heritage, I don't mean contemporary manifestations of
Christianity or Judaism.  Our spiritual heritage is the profound wisdom about
human nature and the magnificent ethical understanding of human life which
form the bedrock of both of these religions.  I think it is one of the
greatest achievements in human history.  *This* is our spiritual heritage.
To abandon it is highly perilous. 

The reason cults are so dangerous is they seduce people into abandoning this
precious spiritual heritage for the sake of some inner experiences.  This is
an invitation to tragedy.  Idon't think Siddha Yoga is as dangerous for most
people as the Moonie cult.  But when we learn about the deceit and the abuse
which have been rampent in Siddha Yoga, I think that is the time to get at
least one foot off the path.  

You may not understand why so many people have so much bitterness and anger
about Siddha Yoga but the way I see it is this:  Too many of us willfully
abandoned our great heritage for the sake of some good inner experiences and
the promise of more to come.  This is wrong and most of us knew it was wrong.
I think some of the people who have left Siddha Yoga feel a lot of shame
because of how they thought and behaved as devotees, and I think this is at
the root of much of the anger and bitterness.  In a recent post MDSNMAN made
a comment about people throwing away $500 or $1000 when they enthusiastically
arrive at the ashram.  But I think it is the squandering of our ethical /
spiritual wealth that leaves people angry and bitter in the end.         

As for Judaism, I don't know too much about it but I recently read a really
excellent book called JEWS, GOD AND HISTORY by Max I. Dimont.  This book is
so popular that it has been in print since 1962.  I learned a lot from it.
He even talks about some large scale cults which developed in Judaism in the
middle ages.  There is nothing new under the sun!

---- R.

Subj:  To MDSNMAN:LatoyaJackson?
Date:  96-02-23 14:53:20 EST
From:  Howie Sm        


**********
WARNING TO PEOPLE OTHER THAN MDSNMAN:  PLEASE SKIP OVER THIS MESSAGE IF YOU
ARE EMOTIONALLY UNSTABLE.  
**********
MDSNMAN,

Given your sense of humor, maybe you can answer this:  is there a Latoya
Jackson thing going on here?

1. Jackoesque facial plastic surgery, in order to resemble Caucasian models.
2. Big purpose in life is to attack brother, tooth and nail.
3. Romantic liason with the business person running their organization.
4. Makes wildly implausible statements with a straight face.
5. Goes for variety shows and revues.
6. Source material for comics.

Humorously yours.

Subj:  Re:To MDSNMAN:LatoyaJackson?
Date:  96-02-23 16:24:14 EST
From:  Dissent222      

Only difference, Intensives aren't offered on a 900 number - - - yet.

Subj:  To NaradaP, Vedanta
Date:  96-02-23 20:05:52 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

Narada,

I understand you pursue Vedanta as a philosophy, and are sympathetic with the
Vedanta folk as a group.  I have found the Vedanta folk to be, in general,
good folk. I've tracked their organization since the 60s and have also looked
into their history before then. Although the Vedanta organization had some
growth pains, which involved intraorganizational strife and a two-way split
early on having to do with their reluctance to recognize women in leadership
roles, I would never compare them with SYDA.  

Some time back one of Vedanta's representatives wrote a letter pleading with
Da Free John (aka Adi Da, etc.) to clean up his act so as not to give
Hinduism a bad name.  As you might know, Da Free John had an authorizing
letter from Swami Muktananda which helped launch his guru career. John was a
Muktananda follower early on, and since then has built an organization based
on zapping people in dramatic ways, as Muktananda did. 

I was impressed with Vedanta taking the effort to write to him in the hope of
curbing his misconduct.  It was a real down-to-earth show of social
responsibility.  The swamis I knew in Vedanta were always more focused on
spiritual substance--than on spiritual fireworks.  The razzle-dazzle of
experiential fireworks, one of SYDA's calling cards, is something the Vedanta
organization never stressed.  That is to their credit.

Subj:  Re:To Howie, on Dependence
Date:  96-02-23 23:53:42 EST
From:  Robert193       

Hi Howie, thanks for your comments on my post about Ram's course.

>>What about those who, in your words, "resist that aspect of the course"?
Many who notice the brainwashing nonetheless exhibit spiritual dependency and
superstitous fears.  Many who privately chuckle or grumble about the cultish
aspects of SYDA nonetheless believe that "something bad will happen" if they
face those "negative" perceptions of SYDA<<

All I can say about this is from my own experience.  I think it has to do
with a notion which is promoted in SY:  That spiritual experience comes
*from* the guru, from our connection to the guru.  I noticed the brainwashing
long before I rejected it.  But I thought, "Maybe he's right.  Maybe if I
take another step into the brainwashed perspective I'll have better
experiences."  In much of his writings Ram is very credible.  I used to think
"I don't know much but Ram knows a lot, maybe I should take his word for it
even though it seems wrong.  Maybe it's just my limitations and samskaras
which are holding me back."  

This is how the correspondence course encourages people to think.  The idea
is that we grow spiritually by disassociating ourselves from what we believe
and substituting Siddha Yoga beliefs in their place.  This is coupled with
the notion that the guru is the source of our spiritual experiences or our
connection to God.  This is what you call spiritual dependency and I agree
with you.  SY and the correspondence course cultivate a psychological
dependence and a childish, almost infantile stance in life.  People relate to
Gurumayi like a small child relates to Mommy and Daddy.

It is only natural as we regress in this direction to become fearful of our
independence.  We become fearful of having our own thoughts and fearful of
striking out on our own, away from Gurumayi  (or the ashram, or the
correspondence course).  This is the child's way of being in the world, and
for many of us it was our way of being in Siddha Yoga.  I think the
superstitious fears you mention are the result of the childlike state which
SY promotes.

Jesus said we should become like children if we wanted to enter into the
kingdom of heaven but I don't think this is what he had in mind.  I think he
meant childlike wonder and openness, not childlike fear and dependency.   

p.s.  Maybe you're onto something with this Latoya Jackson thing!


Subj:  Re:Larryom -- on Ram B.
Date:  96-02-25 12:42:31 EST
From:  Robert193       

You're right Larry.  I don't actually *know* that Ram is anguished.  I never
knew him personally.  But I took his course for a long time and I heard him
talk many times at courses, intensives and workshops.  I think I have a
pretty good feel for what he's like and  I feel pretty certain that he is
torn apart inside.  Here's why:

In the early days of the course Ram lived in Florida and he attracted his own
following of people.  He was like an independent spiritual teacher within
Siddha Yoga.  Baba didn't tolerate that and he brought Ram to the Oakland
Ashram and busted him severely for it.  Ram writes about this in the course,
although he doesn't mention much about having his own little following.  You
have to learn that from people who were around in those days.  (I wasn't -- I
came in the spring of  '83.)  

The point of this is that Ram thrives on the support and love that others
give him.  I think that is why he writes so often and so strongly on the
subject of  "others" in the course.  (The opinions of others don't matter,
others are just part of  the maya, others are a projection of your mind,
etc.)  I think he is writing mainly to himself on this subject.  He values
the attention and affection of others a lot, and yet he isolates himself in
the ashram.  You can live in the ashram and not see him for months.  Then
when you see him he doesn't look happy at all.  He looks troubled.  

Why would someone who thrives on  the love and attention of others isolate
himself within his own community?  I think it's because he's very unhappy
about being in that community.  He is alienated within the ashram but no one
has alienated him.  He has alienated himself.  I think underneath his strong
exterior support of Siddha Yoga he really can't stand it.  I think  SY is
really repulsive to him.  He gives many hints about this in the course
although he never comes right out and says it.  He writes about it in the
past tense, as if he's gotten over it or as if it's good for him to force
himself to embrace something he really can't stand.  

In many of the lessons he talks about how crazy and unpleasant the ashram can
be.  He then goes on to say that this is good for us and we should ignore it
(the brainwashed perspective).  He used to talk about "the wonderful
wrongness of everything in Siddha Yoga", although he no longer says this.  I
don't think he has stopped feeling that so many things in SY are wrong.  I
think he has just stopped saying it.  

When he gives talks or answers questions, you often hear his sardonic humor
and you get a glimpse of what he's really like.  People who are really
brainwashed (or who naturally accept SY completely) don't have that mocking
outsider's perspective.  Someone like Ram doesn't become "company man"
without forcing himself to be that way.  

Ram says in the lessons that he has had all the doubts that others have had,
even more doubts than they have.  I believe it.  That's the kind of person he
really is and  I don't think his doubts have left him.  I think he just
forces himself to "go beyond them", that is to discount or reject what he
really feels.  He calls this sadhana, and he holds it up as an example of
living a spiritual life, but I don't think he really buys it.  I think Ram is
hurting because he forces himself to be something which is he knows is wrong
for him.  I think that is why he is so alienated in the ashram, and why he
never looks well.  

I felt very uncomfortable about SY for two or three years before I finally
left.  Since then I have realized that many others in SY also do, and I think
Ram is one of them.  I think he knows it is wrong for him to still be there
and that is why I have prayed for him.

Subj:  About the Corr. Course
Date:  96-02-26 00:09:03 EST
From:  Dissent222      

Ram B. has been receiving Gurumayi's contempt and devaluation for a long
time, even though she makes a lot of money off of the Course.  She resents
his "mini-Guru" status, and he tries to pretend he adores her as the inner
self, or whatever.  Why doesn't he write about his rage, and his loneliness
and dissatisfaction?  Because he doesn't dare admit to himself and the world
that SYDA, Gurumayi, and he are all running on empty.

Today I read what Ram had to say about the New Yorker article.  Don't argue,
don't disturb your mind, don't this don't that.  Surrounded by new age
platitudes we have a brutally frank hypnotic suggestion to ignore the whole
thing, treat it like a cloud floating by, and put on a happy face.  If these
are the effects of spiritual awakening, how do you tell them apart from
clinical brain death? 


Subj:  Re:Siddha Yoga 20 years
Date:  96-02-26 17:55:05 EST
From:  Shridevi        

I have been practicing Siddha Yoga for about 20 years now.  I am currently 29
years old, so it is a very deep part of my life.  

During my second trip to Ganeshpuri (around 1977) I began to understand what
my relationship to this path was about.  Even though I was so young, I was
definitely doing 'real' sadhana.  And also, I was precocious.  Baba and
(then) Malti used to say that I was an old soul in a young body as I was
already studying Sanskrit with Swami Tejo and taking the "teacher training"
courses etc. etc. etc.  The Brahmin priests came to do a yajna and I remember
sitting for hours and chanting with them, the mantras coming from some
familiar place.  

When I was 13 I was raped by one of the adults on staff (a VIP.)  A tape of
my voice was made and edited to sound like I was servicing several ashramites
at once (by the ashram video staff) and was distributed under the title "the
best little whore house in south fallsburg."  This was during the time that
Baba's own misconduct was coming out, but I didn't know about it yet.  I was
told it was my fault, that I was a whore.  If you want to say this was my
karma - go ahead.  I'm familiar with that cop out and it only reflects one's
inability to take a moral stand as far as I'm concerned.

When I was 21 I had finally had enough shame and sexual scapegoating and I
began to do my own research into the allegations against Baba.  I've talked
to many people who are not so naive as the average, well-intentioned, yogi.
Indeed it is true.  More than you can imagine.

I'm sure that people are getting wonderful things from their practice, but
for the sake of true Dharma, it is important to want to know the truth and to
take a moral stand.

All of the women whose bodies were violated in the most horrible ways were,
like me, never supported.  He got away with it.  He continues to get away
with it as long as well meaning, good people like yourselves choose to remain
in the dark and to give your precious time and energy and money to that
corrupt organization.

Make the connection.  Visualize your daughter, your mother, your sister,
yourself taking your clothes off, lying on a specially made table, spreading
your legs.  I know it is hard.  But it is true.  One young woman was in
hysterics - she was called to Baba and did not want to go.  She sought help
and the person who came to her aid was the person who you hear had threats of
dismemberment etc. etc.

I lived in Ann Arbor.  I know the story there too.  I watched my intelligent
friends, who were sweet but new to the organization and its politics, be lied
to and used as pawns in a pathetic power struggle.

If you are inspired to delete this message, look into your soul.

There are better ways to be with God.

Subj:  Ram Butler
Date:  96-02-26 18:41:19 EST
From:  Shridevi        

Last year, when Ram came out to the west coast to do one of his workshops, we
got together.  I used to work in the SYCC office.  Ram befriended me after
the sex thing happened.  He was the only person that wanted to support me.
Anyway, I spent a lot of personal time with him last year and talked candidly
about where I was coming from.  This was before the New Yorker article came
out.  I told him "I think I will feel free when I feel free of Siddha Yoga.
I can't go to the ashram, I just feel like I am being smothered by all these
righteous ideas of 'spirituality' etc. etc."  His comment was that he felt
the same way.  He left.  I was called by Liz Harris to be interviewed for the
article.  We talked.  I connected to many old friends who have finally left.
And then I got my (scholarship) course in the mail with the newsletter
suggesting that we pray for the poor deluded people who wrote the article . .
. quoting the outraged naive (but probably integrous) people who don't know
what they are talking about AS IF what they are saying is true. . .  Anyway,
I thought it was pretty pathetic of Ram.  I expect that since I have finally
unsnagged myself, he should too.  But it took me 8 years.  I've talked about
getting together with Ram when he comes out here at the end of March.  Of
course, now that I've said this, I am probably up a few notches on the
preverbial "LIST."

Subj:  Re:Lotoya/Shridevi
Date:  96-02-26 20:38:00 EST
From:  MDSNMAN         

Great post Howie.  Funny.  And Dissent's 900 number idea is no doubt getting
serious consideration in the bowels of siddha yoga right now (What do you
think, Mac?).  But as we all laugh at this pathetic cult now from the
outside, let us not forget the real human cost that has been paid by people
like Shridevi.  Her story is not unique.  I was never raped, but I lost 20
years of my adult life.  I lost my will, my self-confidence, my independence,
and for a while even my  ability to distinguish right from wrong.  There are
hundreds of us out here.  My prayer is that others are spared the anguish of
being snared into that world the way we were and that we all continue to
heal, move forward with confidence and get on with our lives.  God bless.  

Subj:  the story of 20 years in SY 
Date:  96-02-26 23:45:42 EST
From:  Shridevi        

Dear Siddha Yogini, it appears that you are truly fortunate to have practiced
Siddha Yoga for as long as you have and have not encountered anything but the
beauty of the teachings, the joy of devotion and an open hearted spiritual
community.  I spent 20 years in Siddha Yoga (at this point more that two
thirds of my life - I grew up in it) and have had many thousands of wonderful
experiences.

When I was nine years old, my family went to the DeVille (the first South
Fallsburg retreat center) to meet Baba.  By the time I was 11, I was the
youngest person ever to become a formal teacher of Siddha Yoga.  The
teachings of Kashmir Shaivism resonate at the very core of my being.  I feel
that I came to Siddha Yoga at such a young age because I had been doing these
practices before.  They are still my religious practices of choice.  When I
was 13, I was sexually assaulted by a senior staff member of Baba's tour.  He
was on the video staff and made an audio tape of my voice which he edited to
sound like I was servicing (giving head) to a number of ashram young men (a
story which they all corroborated later.)  I was punished for this, and was
told I was a whore - a label which followed me for many years.  I know how it
felt to have no one take a moral stand on my behalf.  Everyone was more
concerned with protecting the ashram and protecting their "experiences" from
the possibility that something was fucked up.  I can understand that because
even after my experience, I remained uncritical for another 15 years.  

This happened at the same time that the "alleged" sexual misconduct letters
by Sam Trout were circulating.  I had no idea at the time that part of the
reason I was being so severely sexually scapegoated as a child had to do with
the enormous sexual shadow floating around the ashram.

Anyway, when I was 21 or so, I started investigating these rumors.  I trusted
that if it is TRUE that "nothing exists which is not Shiva" then I need not
be afraid of anything I might discover, there is no territory that is not
sacred if I approach this with respect for Dharma and for the truth of the
teachings.  Strange events in my life lead me to meet people who had first
had experience of these accusations, and were not just "gossiping."  Also,
after so many hundreds of accounts of things, I decided that keeping Baba's
name clear at the expense of innocent young girls was like protecting OJ
Simpson because he is famous and rich, and at one time we all had a
transference on football players.  Just because I had a transference on Baba,
and a powerful one at that, did not change the fact that he had told young
girls to take their clothes off and spread their legs for him.  They were
often quite traumatized.  

I don't think it is righteous to cling to igorance and to defend Muktananda
at the expense of so many other human beings.


Subj:  the list
Date:  96-02-26 23:53:14 EST
From:  Shridevi        

Yes, there is a "list" and I am on it.  Again, I have known people who were
very high in the security department.  Not only is there a bonafide list, but
there are bonafide weapons in South Fallsburg and in India.  I know there is
a bonafide list also, because I am on it.  I was told I was on it by someone
who saw it, but knew this for myself when I was called out of bed in the
middle of the night to "talk" to the manager.  She wanted to make sure I felt
"comfortable" with my experience in Ann Arbor.  What happened in Ann Arbor?
Well, after they totally went after Nityananda and lied to the devotees about
it, I stopped going to satsang.  Most of my friends were very clearly
ex-communicated and I was told if I was ever to associate with them again I
(like they) would not be allowed ever to come back to the ashram.  My friends
had videos of the violence that took place against Nityananda and which
clearly exposed the lies Gurumayi's people were telling.  However, I never
had contact with these people because I graduated and moved home.  When I
came back to Ann Arbor several months later, a huge list of false allegations
were presented to me after they dragged me out of the meditation hall.  I
told them they should get their story straight before I wrote to Gurumayi and
they shaped up right away.  

They said "Nityananda could destroy my sadhana."  I replied "How about your
lying and gossip and attacks in the name of Siddha Yoga, what does that do
for my sadhana?"  They apologized profusely and realized they had a person
who was not a total idiot on their hands.  I could tell the whole story if
anyone is interested, it is actually humorous.  But anyway, I did tell Liz
Harris and (see next bulletin)

Subj:  the article
Date:  96-02-26 23:56:02 EST
From:  Shridevi        

I was one of the people interviewed by Liz and I have to say that she was
very careful to print only what was corroborated my many many many people.
Liz had so much more information that she did not print.  Everything in that
article is true.  I know because I experienced most of it first hand.  

Dear Ms. Marie,
Please wake up.  For the sake of the young girls, for the sake of them, stop
protecting this organization.  Your righteousness now will embarrass you
later.  

Subj:  Re:the list -Ann Arbor
Date:  96-02-27 06:35:12 EST
From:  Dissent222      

The most interesting thing to me about how the Ann Arbor devotees attacked
Nityananda, at Gurumayi's request, was that a licensed clinical psychologist
there, who now works with a former SYDA Trustee, was instructed by Gurumayi
and George Afif to hire a local thug to threaten Nityananda and disrupt his
meeting.  This licensed clinical psychologist is also someone on Gurumayi's
panel of advisors who Gurumayi sends people with problems in the ashram to.
This man's behavior shows the extent to which loyalty to Gurumayi is the
equivalent of loss of integrity.  Loyalty to her  ALWAYS means, in the end,
the willingness to be exploited and degraded.  Why?  Read "Captive Hearts,
Captive Minds".  

I participated in several of the Nityananda bashing events over the years,
all at Gurumayi's request.  I have a hand written note from her thanking me
for doing so.  He was followed all over India, and all over the world.
Travel and lodging fees for those sent to stalk and harass him are paid by
all you loyal devotees, from your so-called dakshina.



Subj:  Bhagwan Hasheesh
Date:  96-02-26 22:28:23 EST
From:  Dissent222      

I heard this weekend that B. Premanand, the head of the Indian Skeptic
organization,  grew up in the town Bhagawan Nityananda used to live in.  It
seems that Nityananda Sr. was quite famous, not for miracles, but for being
continuously stoned on hemp.

No wonder the gurus who claim descent from him are Muktananda, Gurumayi (aka
Twisted Sister), Nityananda Jr., Swami Rudy, and Adi Da (or Da Free John). 

The names of the Gurus in the lineage before Nityananda Sr. have never before
been revealed.  Now it can be told!  They are, not necessarily in sequence:
- The Marquis de Sade
- Atilla the Hun
- Leona Helmsley
- Bozo the Clown 
- The Wicked Witch of the West (later reincarnated as Swami Kripananda)
- The Artist Formerly Known as Prince
- Cruela DeVil
and loads of others!  If you know their names, feel free to add to the list!

Subj:  Re:re: Lawsuit
Date:  96-02-26 22:30:22 EST
From:  Dissent222      

Suhasini Dobrovolny and Sudama Sitkin brought the restraining order against
SPV on behalf of SYDA.  SPV tried to use the 2 Open Letters in his brief, but
the SYDA lawyers got that stricken from the record.  They succeeded in
restraining him from harrassing women in the Oakland Ashram, and apparently
got him off of AOL.  SPV's claims of victory are typically twisted.

Subj:  Re:Bhagwan Hasheesh
Date:  96-02-27 06:08:05 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

Bhagwan Hasheesh!  Now it can be told! (continued):  

THE THOUSAND QUALITIES AND NAMES OF THE LIVING GODHEAD

-aesthetic taste of Tammy Faye Bakker  
-tactics of Tanya Harding
-singing ability of Roseanne
-profile of Dorian Gray
-conflict resolution style of Amy Fisher
-scriptural knowledge of Knucklehead Smith
-trustworthiness of Pinto gas tank
-family feel of Menendez Bros.
-meditative stillness of Norman Bates (last scene)
-sense of humor of a SYDA apologist

(Keep the Vedic oral tradition alive!  Those who know the other qualities,
please help complete the list)


Subj:  charlie's frontal lobe(s)
Date:  96-02-27 21:41:03 EST
From:  Shridevi        

Sometimes "the guru" doesn't ask us to do the elite, violent and clearly
amoral things, sometimes she asks us to be one of the masses whose job it is
to stubbornly and skillfully defend, as you are, her behavior.  

(I remember that night of the dancing saptah.  I was there, one of the
elites.  The ashram video department was located above the 'teacher training
room' and I was up there desperately trying to get my hands on the 'whore
house' cassette and destroy it.)

You seem like the kind of person who has enough integrity to stand up to
security guards in SYDA.  This is a very straight forward thing.  However, to
stand up to your own complex rhetoric is another matter.   One is black and
white, another is smeared to grey.  

I spent many years tangled up in such an esoteric web of thoughts, and felt
righteous because of it.  (mine was not the easy answer.)

Well,  I still don't have a simple answer aesthetic, but the molecular dance
of ideology and power becomes clearer over time.  

Here's a quote from my thesis, adapted from Anti-Oedipus:  Capitalism and
Schizophrenia by D&G.

"Schizophrenia", like those suffering from it, goes by many names.
"Philosophy" is one.  Not just any philosophy.  A bastard kind.  Legitimate
philosophy is the handiwork of bureaucrats of purity and spirituality (and
don't show you're angry 'cause then you're the weak one) who speak in the
shadow of the despot and are in historical complicity with the state (read
ashram).  They invent a properly spiritual absolute state that effectively
functions in the mind.  Theirs is the discourse of sovereign judgement
(scripturally correct), of stable (non-hysterical, not angry, not feminine)
legislated by "good" sense, of rocklike identity, "universal" truth and
(white male) justice.  Thus the exercise of their thought is (already even
before they think it) in conformity with the aims of the State with the
dominant significations and with the requirements of the established order."

What is important about these pseudo sophisticated ideologies put forth in
statements like yours, Charlie, is that they are complicit and entrained
BEFORE YOU EVEN THINK THEM.  Ideology IS ideology BECAUSE it APPEARS to be
NATURAL.   Ideology is the mirror that you look into and say "this is me!
this is authentic!  this feels like 'coming home.'"  And it does not take a
'weak' person to get sucked into it.  I'm sorry to say that every truly
sophisticated intellectual (god forbid people have intellects, I know,
especially us women) would totally laugh at the idea that only 'weak' people
succumb to ideology.  That is what ideology WANTS you to think!  It wants you
to think that YOU with all of your native american stories and sweet wisdom
sound bites are AWAKE by god.  

I know I sound like a conspiricist.  I'm not, I just am trying to keep it
simple here on aol.

Subj:  Re:Dependency Paradigm
Date:  96-02-27 06:41:37 EST
From:  Dissent222      

Your paradigm sounds fine, but don't blame victims for feeling victimized,
OK?  Gurumayi is a con artist and a psychopath, and her organization has
refined the art of exploitation and mind control to a tee.  Many people who
fall into her trap have dependency issues, but everyone has them, not just
people who get into cults.  Just about anyone with a talent for
self-suggestion, some idealism, and some vulnerability, can get seduced into
SYDA, have experiences, and become controlled.  Read some of this literature
out there, it's good stuff - The Guru Papers; Captive Hearts, Captive Minds;
The Wrong Way Home; etc. 

Subj:  shridevi
Date:  96-02-27 14:20:40 EST
From:  Soloflyr11      

dear shridevi,

again i have to thank you after reading more of your posts.  i can't tell you
how i appreciate your sharing. 

you obviously became involved in siddha yoga with your family.  i do hope
that the rest of your family also has left.  i have a cousin that i love very
much that is still quite involved.  that is difficult for me especially cause
i have this strong inpulse to shake him and say "don't you see".  but of
course when i tried it was like talking to a wall or maybe more like a
machine where i could press a button and get a totally predictable response.
it makes me angry it makes me sad.  my cousin's response to the abuse of
nityananda which he partook in was "well, he broke his vows".  it is so sad
to me that people (like my cuz) who really are seeking enlightenment and
awakening could be so misled to believe that abusive behavior is alright.
life truly is interesting. but then wasn't it confucius that said that it's a
curse to be born in interesting times....

thanx again!!!!!
solo


Subj:  Re:Dependency Paradigm
Date:  96-02-27 21:07:30 EST
From:  NaradaP         

Dissent222, 

Thank you for the post and the reading list.  I agree with you that most
people have dependency issues, but I believe that is only a phase in our
spiritual evolution.  Eventually we will out grow it.  We have to if we are
ever to become truly enlighten in this life or in some life to come.  No
enlighten being is ever dependent on another.  Why should they when they have
every desire satiated?  In fact to me, evolution on the spiritual path means
to become more and more independent until we are liberated from all external
dependencies.

But I disagree that everybody has dependency issues.  To say that is pure
projection.  We have to understand other people from where they are coming
from, not from where we are coming from. Myself, I am very independent.  In
fact, since my happiness lies in the non-dual, I've never formed
relationships for happiness sake, I know nothing about giving or receiving
affection.  If I projected my independence on you, I couldn't understand the
hold SYDA held over you!

I feel that being dependent is definitely a weakness that leaves one open for
manipulation.  Charlie said, "I wonder if you're the victims of a corrupt
Guru or your own inner weaknesses."  I would agree with what Charlie said if
he would change one word.  If he would change the word 'or' to 'and'.  In
other words I would agree with Charlie if he would of said, 

"I wonder if you're the victims of a corrupt Guru and your own inner
weaknesses."

Because a corrupt Guru could only get to you through your own weakness.  A
Guru who was not corrupt would try to strengthen your weakness.  Don't you
think so? 

You said, >>but don't blame victims for feeling victimized<<

To this I would say that we learn that fire is hot by getting our fingers
burnt.  That is how we learn. So if a child gets his fingers stung learning
fire is hot, do we blame that child for burning his fingers, or do we
understand that the child is learning a useful lesson in life?  The same with
being victimized by ones dependencies issues, when one gets burnt enough, one
will began to differentiate away from ones dependency issues into living more
independent lives thereby giving
one more control over ones own destine.  But one *must* take responsibility
for ones own life and actions.  It is because you neglected to resolve your
dependency issues that gave an angle for a Guru to 'get' to you.  If you
neglect to take care of it still, you will find history repeating itself.

Namaste

Subj:  Re:Dependency Paradigm
Date:  96-02-27 21:27:29 EST
From:  Dissent222      

Narada P

You state:
" I believe that is only a phase in our spiritual evolution.  Eventually we
will out grow it.  We have to if we are ever to become truly enlighten in
this life or in some life to come.  No enlighten being is ever dependent on
another.  Why should they when they have every desire satiated?  In fact to
me, evolution on the spiritual path means to become more and more independent
until we are liberated from all external dependencies."

You are talking about fantasies, not reality.  A completely independent human
being is a monster, someone without the capacity for empathy, without the
ability to genuinely, intimately connect with others, and desperately empty
inside -- all of which describe Gurumayi to a tee, the tortured, bulimic
restaurant owner's daughter who became a perpetrator after being a victim for
so long..  The rest of your argument is proof of your total lack of contact
with yourself and with reality. And you have the gall to say you're
independent?  Judging from your text here, I would say you are isolated from
people and reality.   Read what is on this board and wake up.  People have
been raped and abused and betrayed in the cruellest possible ways by
Gurumayi, Muktananda and their closest staff members.  Your puerile idiotic
blather is utterly inappropriate, truly sick.


Subj:  enough heavy shit
Date:  96-02-28 05:41:23 EST
From:  Shridevi        

I hope you all have a philosophical sense of humor.

One of the nice things about being out of that scene is that you're not
trying to wield heavy scriptural weapons all the time.

While GM was here in California, one of my good friends got back into SY.  A
couple of days ago she sent me a letter telling me our friendship was over.

I've been in human-ness here for a while - feeling sad about the whole thing.
And pissed.  And righteous.  And relieved.  And liberated.  And all kinds of
things.

I don't want SY to come between me and someone I love.  Love is the bigger
thing.   Two intelligent people with their hearts in the right place should
be able to work it out.

But we weren't.  And I don't really believe that we will.  And that sucks.

I wish I had never been raised in that organization, then there wouldn't be a
whole group of people on the planet that made me want to barf.  I hope that
this wears off over time.

Actually, it is just the "power denial" as my friend calls it, that makes me
want to barf.  

Subj:  Hitlerian herd behavior/BVena
Date:  96-02-28 05:19:34 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

BVena, about the SYDA appropriation of the "Heil Hitler" arm gesture you say:

<<<<The gesture is simply part of Indian culture. Check out some Indian films
containing chants, bhajans.>>>>

 The SYDA "Heil Hitler" gesture--the specific, wooden way it is executed in
SYDA--is not an Indian universal.  Conformist displays of the "Heil Hitler"
arm gesture were not even a FAD in SYDA until late on into Gurumayi's regime.
And the "Heil Hitler" effect is not seen at routine chants. The big-time
"Heil Hitler" effect occurs just at the more intense chants directed by
Gurumayi. Perhaps you haven't been to these bigger chants, so you don't
realize how specific I am when I single out SYDA as the champion of the "Heil
Hitler" arm gesture. The way SYDAites do "Heil Hitler" is distinctive.  You
can almost hear the heel clicks!    

It takes more than they physical "Heil Hitler" arm gesture to get the
Hitlerian effect.  It takes a mob doing it with the correct Hitlerian "bhav."
Shridevi understands this well, when she writes:

 <<<Now I sign on to aol and find all this irreverent stuff about the arm
waving (and has anyone mentioned the screetchy angel voice singing?)  and I
just smile.  Thank GOD (shiva or whomever) that we can all just be human
again! Not only to call attention to the heinous crimes but also to just say
what the (TOS) about some of those ridiculous herd behaviors.>>>

HERD BEHAVIOR: that's the significant concept.  The arm gesture is just
gravy. 

Subj:  Shridevi: SYDA story/movie
Date:  96-02-28 05:41:09 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

Shridevi,  you ask

<<<Isn't there a Kurt Vonnegut short story about a culture which tries to
homogenize its members to the lowest common denominator of intelligence and
creativity?  Does anyone remember the title?>>>

The story has just been made into a wonderful movie titled "Harrison
Bergeron."  This story of a zombie culture, in which the intelligent/creative
are arrested and forcibly lobotomized while the masses sit with dopy smiles,
will seem a trot down memory lane for those who know SYDA. 

The zombies are portrayed as incapable of responding to the simplest,
rational arguments against the rampant mind control.  Sound familiar? Parents
smilingly hand over their children for lobotomization.  Sound familiar? The
zombies have been brainwashed into believing that intelligence/creativity and
unhappiness are synonymous. Sound familiar? I strongly recommend it to
movie-lovers. It's a fun movie that is worth seeing.




Subj:  Re:To NaradaP
Date:  96-02-28 00:50:39 EST
From:  Robert193       

Thanks for bringing your purity of mind and purpose to this forum.  I think
it's good to think spiritually or philosophically and I think it's good to
get grounded in the interpersonal / dualistic realm.  We are, after all
people who exist in that realm and we are belong here.  
This business about independence is very tricky.  I think it's great to
become independent of some things, but some people lose touch with the
ethical framework which is necessary for human life (which exists only in
communities of one sort or another).  A person who becomes "independent" of
that is truly dangerous.  I think Dissent 222 is right about that. 

I hope you continue both your contemplations and your work and relationships
in the realm of "duality".   I also hope you aren't chased away by the anger
on this forum.  That anger exists for a very good reason and although it may
sometimes come your way, it's really not directed towards you personally, but
towards those who have used spiritual language as a way of masking
manipulative and destructive agendas.  There's a lot to be learned on this
forum and you're lucky to be involved in these discussions before you got
yourself  into a situation where spiritual language was used for manipulation
and deceit.


Subj:  Re:Dependency Paradigm
Date:  96-02-28 05:22:38 EST
From:  Shridevi        

Total independence is an idealist notion, not reflected in nature.  In
reality, as opposed to spiritual theory, we are mutually interdependent.
There is a relationship.  The relationship that most people in Siddha Yoga
agreed to was not a corrupt one.  

To spend our time trying to psychoanalyze ourselves misses the point, I
think.  It fails to understand ideology as such, and instead, gets us side
tracked into subjectivizing everything.


Subj:  Narada/Dependency Paradigm
Date:  96-02-28 06:25:42 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

Narada, 

Since you probably don't really endorse rapists and sociopathy, perhaps you
would like to know how your attempt to write has misfired.

Most people on this forum know I have a thick skin, but when I read your
recent messages I gasped--I literally HOWLED--with embarrassment.  Someone
who is conspicuously slow on the uptake should not try to ape Hindu
philosophers.  Perhaps without realizing it, you are arguing that SYDA's
abuses--for example, SYDA rape--is a problem of metaphysics.  It is not.  It
is a problem of ethics. 

Ethics--the principles of conscientious human conduct--is not metaphysics.
This is obvious to someone who has grasped even the Cliff's notes version of
Vivekananda and Shankara.  Both these fine thinkers were sophisticated
ethicists as well as metaphysicians.  There is of course a connection between
philosophical subdisciplines.  But the notion that someone who shouts "help,
I'm being raped" is wallowing in duality is patently absurd!

The way you cobble words together paints you as a sociopath.  As Dissent222
points out.  Worse, you drag in Hinduism in your display of misspeaking!  

Dissent222 is maybe your best friend--if you aren't really a sociopath, I'd
listen to his easy-to-grasp advice.  Robert--with remarkable elegance and
politeness--is telling you the same thing Dissent222 is. 

I have written this message because they forget to tell you this: unless you
want the world to think you are a lunatic, start writing plainly.  Watching
you play with words is like watching a chimpanzee play with loaded guns.

I admit I am not a good writer either, for I was unable to find a nice way to
put this to you.  


Subj:  I'm leaving
Date:  96-02-28 13:13:38 EST
From:  Somadatta       

Charlie, the lesson I need to learn is how not to get mad when I read
brainwashed people.It reminds me of the way I used to be. It is painful to
read. These inappropriate defenses of siddha yoga feel sadistic. Yes, I have
lessons to learn. I already feel pathetic enough as it is for being so stupid
for so many years and don't need to hear sanctimonious spiritual putdowns
right now. But maybe now that I'm not brainwashed anymore at least there's
hope for me. I regret that I started writing messages because it feels like
getting dragged into a world with brainwashed people all over again. I feel
like I've been sucked into something crazy again. I'm leaving this areafor
now.  Thank you everyone. I learned something here.

Subj:  Re:to Mira about "Nit Jr."
Date:  96-02-28 11:21:35 EST
From:  CHIKKAR         

Why is everyone using up valuable board space and time to digress on
something that occured 10 years ago. Baba is dead for over 12 years. He is
not present to defend himself. Also, Gurumayi may ultimately be in charge,
but anyone who has ever been involved in the real business world or even in
church affairs knows how much power is abused by even average workers. Where
is the proof that GM and George had an affair? Scandal and slander are
serious issues. They can be cause for lawsuits. Be careful what you spread
around on the net. Think of the harm it is doing! If anyone besides the
original group of open letter writers has hard evidence of what has been
going on in SYDA YOGA, please have the courage to come forward and settle
this devisive issue. Otherwise, please discontinue this endless ranting and
raging.It's exhausting to those of us who prefer honest, rational dialogue.

Vasagupta

Subj:  Re:to Mira about "Nit Jr."
Date:  96-02-28 14:26:58 EST
From:  Dissent222      

Telling the truth about the history of corruption, abuse and deception in
Siddha Yoga, which has always been the case and continuest to this day, does
not do harm.  It is Muktananda's and Gurumayi's and Geo. Afif's corruption,
abuse and deception that has harmed and continues to harm, even destroy, so
many lives.



Subj:  Re:I'm leaving
Date:  96-02-28 15:31:54 EST
From:  Shridevi        

I had the same impulse as Somadatta.  I saw myself getting all reactive about
things that are difficult for me, but basically I feel pretty clear about.  I
also saw myself being rude to people just because they were saying righteous
things that I myself might have said several years ago.  I apologize for
that.  I don't think this is about the battle of the belief systems, or who
to blame.  It should be about learning about this phenomenon (not just cults,
but power and ideology in general) and making a positive contribution.  I do
think that calling attention (over and over if necessary) to the abuses
perpetrated by SYDA is a positive contribution.  There is so much
dis-information, it is wonderful that there is a place to speak the truth.
However, if we look outside our little cult world, we see that a similar kind
of fascism is taking over the bigger reality.  How can we use what we have
learned to wake up and take action in that sphere as well?

Subj:  SYDA employment practices
Date:  96-02-28 15:58:05 EST
From:  Bob1258487      

Why not get down to what's really important here?  The thing that really bugs
me is the fact that the SYDA business empire is built on the backs of the
full time sevites - people who have been persuaded to give up the best years
of their lives in the expectation of some undefined spiritual benefit.  And
what do they get when they leave in return for this generous donation of
their sweat and career potential? Any of the benefits that would be expected
from any self-respecting business?  A pension?  Health insurance?  A savings
account? Maybe just something to put on their resume?  Maybe just a few
friendships that survive their departure from SYDA? Not bloody likely. 

"Hi, I'd like to apply for the job of manager at your firm."  

"OK, what are your qualifications."

"Well, I took the Fire Course twice, and spent ten years volunteering
full-time in a religious group."  

Who is going to take care of these ex-SYDA people and ex-Swamis who leave for
one reason or another?  They haven't even made Social Security contributions,
since any pay they may earn in SYDA is considered a "stipend" and any room
and board a "scholarship."  That kind of fraudulent employment practice is
the kind of thing that earns you more than a casual glance from the IRS if
you try it with your housekeeper, but powerful religious groups all over this
country get away with it all the time. (Note - SYDA is not even the most
egregious in this respect)

These people wash up on taxpayer beach after years in SYDA, most likely
without remaining friends and family to care for them, having lost the
threads of a career or education, like middle-aged divorcees who thought that
staying home and taking care of the kids would be enough to see them through.


And the kicker is that the way people are persuaded to give up their lives
and become full-time staff members is through the kind of hard-sell practices
that a used car dealer would be embarrassed about. "The opportunity of
working for a sadguru comes up only once in a lifetime."  They go after young
people who have no idea of how deleting a chunk of the best years of their
life  will affect their careers. I have no objection to people volunteering
some of their time for a cause which is important to them.  It is when they
become full-time employees for years without the minimum safety net that is
accorded even a minimum wage worker in this country that I take note.  Even
if no actual tax or labor law has been broken, in an age when the mere
appearance of impropriety is enough to bring down a corporation or
politician, surely the line has been crossed here. 


Subj:  charlie
Date:  96-02-28 16:40:21 EST
From:  Shridevi        

i have always been loyal to my friends in and out of siddha yoga.  like i
said, love is the most important thing.  the pattern that seems to come back
over and over is that as long as I am taking a clear stand about siddha yoga
as an organization, those people that i love tell me i am bad company.

yes, that makes me angry.  it makes me sad.  i am human.  

i also spent time being able to be both in and out of siddha yoga.  i had no
'problem' with it because i was able to keep my distance from the politics.
there is some wisdom in that, i think.

and even though all those horrible things happened to me, I was able to move
on and not have a chip on my shoulder.  i give myself some credit since for
many years this had a lasting effect on my ability to experience any kind of
sexual arousal whatsoever.  there were damages.

but what has changed for me is that i began to put things together in a
different way.  

i didn't separate 'the politics and the organization' from other things.  i
saw that as long as i didn't speak up, as long as i continued to go and sit
in the back of the room, and chant and buy dhoop at the bookstore - i was in
some way giving my energy to something that really should not be supported.

so i stopped.  i stopped for the sake of the women like myself who had to
bear their shame in silence because everyone was willing to make the kinds of
negotiations I myself was making.

i see you making these negotiations and yes, it makes me mad, it makes me
sad, i am human.  and have been posting for two days now, and i'm also human
enough to admit that i don't want to take my anger out on you.  

i would ask you also to please not judge me too harshly.  

i have not lost my love for the teachings.  in fact, this is a chance to
REALLY practice them.  (like the story in the Don Juan books about the cat
who had to finally be a cat to save his life.)  It is easier to see god in
the people you agree with.  

but for me, healing is not about the teachings from above, but being able to
be human and see that in our willingness to simply be human, there is love
and there is something sacred.


Subj:  it does suck
Date:  96-02-28 16:45:36 EST
From:  Soloflyr11      

i too lost a friend who felt reborn into sy when gurumayi just came through
california.  when we talked she was very angry at me and blamed me for her
previous lack of involvement because of my outspoken doubts.  she would not
stop yelling at me. i tried to get her to calm down and talk, but when she
refused to stop attacking me there was nothing left to do but hang up.   it
was very upsetting to me, i was trembling all over, but i also knew that i
was moving on and our paths had to part.  i was sad and i was pissed.  but i
also have no doubt that i have chosen the right direction in leaving, so if
that means loosing yet another friend, well so be it.  yes it does suck. my
emotions regarding the incident did calm, though i'm sure i still have some
pain and anger lurking in the shadows...  when i left sy one of the hardest
things was that i was loosing the wonderful sense of belonging and i was
loosing almost all my friends.  seems to be a common part of the leaving
process and one of the most difficult, especially if *all* your friends were
in sy. though it was not easy,  i am *so* grateful i left cause i know that
had i remained i would NOT have had the opportunity to grow in the ways that
i have....  

a friend told me a story of goethe's that went something like this.   you walk
down many roads in life and ocassionally there comes a time when you will
need to go faster or slower or down a different road than the friend with
whom you have been traveling.  at that time you bid your friend goodbye and
travel on. as you continue on your new path or at your new speed you will
meet new friends on this new road that will become your new traveling
companions ...  of course that doesn't explain all relationships, but i did
like the way it portrayed the need to "move on" and the fact that we *do*
make new friends.   and indeed as i move on, and on, and on,  i make new
friends along the way, always more suited to path i am currently
traveling....

i'm sorry that somadatta feels it's necessary to leave but i do understand.
it is difficult for me to listen to the brainwashing, i get angry, i get sad.
at first i wished i never posted and got involved cause i felt myself getting
sucked into the craziness that i had left behind.  now i am rather enjoying
the variety of things that are being posted in these sy folders and often
feel grateful to those who are sharing their time, energy, thoughts and
feelings.    it's given me much to contemplate both from the content and from
my own reactions and it has helped me in many ways in my healing process.  i
have also found that posting here has been a very healing  for me, letting
out some of these thoughts and feelings and hoping to help others.    it even
does in a small way give me a little communal satisfaction.  i think i'll
stick around a little longer....
solo

Subj:  Humorous healings 1/2
Date:  96-02-28 20:55:28 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 1 OF 2

W E L C O M E   T O    D E A R     A B B E Y A N A N D A
**********************

Dear Abbeyananda,

A hydrophobic she-dog ripped my throat and the blood is spurting.  I am
without insurance, without pension, and near retirement age. All I have to
show for the past thirty years is a couple of orange skirts and a
cult-induced psychiatric condition.  Ram Butler never mentioned this. What to
do?

Signed,

Swami A-poorhouse-ananda

Dear Swami A-poorhouse-ananda,

You have fallen.  You are wallowing in duality.  Immediately assume the
Sanmukhi Mudra.  The Sanmukhi Mudra is when you  block your eyes, ears, and
nose with your fingers and palms in order to perceive nothing.  Then stop
thinking.  Hold this position until further notice.

Signed,

Abbeyananda

SEE PART 2
Subj:  Humorous healings 2/2
Date:  96-02-28 20:57:37 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 2

Abbeyananda's P. S.  People in the Sanmukhi Mudra make spare change hiring
out as one of the "see-no-evil, hear-no-evil, speak-no-evil" monkeys that
Chidvilasananda reached for when asked if she and her brother were Siddhas
(perfect beings) on November 26, 1982.  Here are some excerpts. 

NOTE: The following excerpts are REALLY WHAT THEY SAID, including the
reference to the three monkeys--except for where HSm butts in, which is set
apart in parentheses and clearly labeled.

Q.  ARE YOU SIDDHAS?

--Chidvilasananda places a wooden statue of the three monkeys in front of
them.--

Nityananda:  Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil; that's the answer. . .
.So it is up to you to figure out what we are.  We leave it up to you.  (HSm
says:  HEY BOSS!  NEWSFLASH!  THE RESULTS ARE IN!  WE'VE FINISHED FIGURING!)

Q.  WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO BOTH OF YOU, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT STATE YOU'RE
IN?  ARE YOU REALIZED? 

Chidvilasananda:  It's such a wonderful question . . . (HSm says:
MDSNMAN--quick!  pass the barf bag! ! !) . . .Baba always said you cannot
answer this question in words.  You can only answer this question through
action.  (HowieSm says: Actions like cosmetic surgery or loot collecting?
MDSNMAN--hurry up with that barf bag, would you--whoops, too late.)

(HSm says: THOSE OF YOU WHO DIDN'T DESTROY THE NITYANANDA-POLLUTED FEBRUARY
1983 SIDDHA PATH, LIKE YOU WERE ORDERED TO, CAN GUZZLE THE REST OF THESE
FOOTWATER ANSWERS.)


Subj:  Rharrison bergeron
Date:  96-02-28 16:46:45 EST
From:  Shridevi        

THAT WAS IT!  THAT WAS THE NAME OF THE STORY I READ.

yes, a trot indeed.

ya wanna know the truth?  in this culture of which sy is also a concentrated
metaphor, it DOES seem to be much harder to be creative and free thinking.

i wouldn't be honest if i didn't say that, from my experience, there is a
(subtle/structural/whatever) conspiracy against freedom.


Subj:  Re:to Mira about "Nit Jr."
Date:  96-02-28 14:26:58 EST
From:  Dissent222      

Telling the truth about the history of corruption, abuse and deception in
Siddha Yoga, which has always been the case and continuest to this day, does
not do harm.  It is Muktananda's and Gurumayi's and Geo. Afif's corruption,
abuse and deception that has harmed and continues to harm, even destroy, so
many lives.


Subj:  Vasaguptacharya
Date:  96-02-28 15:43:29 EST
From:  Shridevi        

I have personally experienced many of the allegations made by the people in
the open letter. 

Sexual abuse, excommunication, violence.

If you want to talk to me, you can send e-mail.  

'Hard' evidence abounds but (like OJ) a perpetrator can still get off if they
have good lawyers and people willing to double talk for them.

I understand your frustration with the ranting and raving, but, as a young
woman who was raped, and who was condemned and attacked and scapegoated for
someone else's inability to own their desire (in the ashram, of course) - I
find it to be an ultimately healing endeavor to finally take a moral stand.
I wish that someone had taken a stand when I was still a child.


Subj:  Re:PROOF OF ABUSES
Date:  96-02-28 15:49:51 EST
From:  Shridevi        

This is america.  

In America, money buys justice.  Siddha Yoga has money.  

As a mere plebe in the relative scheme of things, I have experienced pretty
painful things as a result of "taking a stand."  I continue to take a stand
of course, but for friends of mine who were more of a risk, their
'punishment' was greater.  I watched them anguish and live their lives in
fear.

If we all came out, Siddha Yoga might not have a chance.  Sort of like the
student revolts and civil disobedience.  If we all do it, they can't go after
all of us.  

Frankly, I think we've come a long way and I think it is possible that
someday more people will feel safe.  
But that will depend upon two things - many, not just a few people need to
speak the truth (this is happening more and more) and also these people who
speak out need to be supported.  They need to know that others will not sit
back and watch them fry.

I will tell you everything I know.  I will tell you who I am.  I will tell
you whatever you want to know.  I don't care if you are a 'spy' even.  But
I'm not going to put my other friends at risk whom the ashram really IS out
to get.

Subj:  you have a part too.
Date:  96-02-28 16:04:41 EST
From:  Shridevi        

You have a part in this too.  The swamis and vip's can't do it all.  Your
part is to read whatever you can get your hands on about this (New Yorker,
Co-Evolution Quarterly, Common Boundary, Open Letter, Swami Abhayananda's
letter (a SWAMI - there you go! and do you know what they did to HIM?) and
books on cults if you wish) and then think for a minute and say to yourself
"well, I can continue to call this all 'gossip' because i haven't yet seen
the video of baba naked with so and so or whatever . . . or I can just use my
common sense and support the people who are doing what they can."

People are doing what they can.  They have to do what is most efficient.
They can't blow it. 

You already have experience with this in your life.  For instance:  if Ronald
Regan tells you that he is supporting "freedom fighters" in Central America
do you believe him because you don't have 'hard' evidence to the contrary? 

Every intelligent person knows that we have an imperialist goverment that is
out to exploit the rest of the world.  But they will always be seen as crazy
for saying so.

But if we all start just SAYING SO it won't sound so crazy after a while.



Subj:  Re:mira and thesis
Date:  96-02-29 00:48:48 EST
From:  BREAD DR        

Funny, how all of you who seem to have "the" way, spend so much time trying
to demonstrate the faults of other's systems.  In the name of "teaching"?
And where are you with your lives?  Are you trying to demonstrate the traits
that you aspire to?  So many analyzing the words of others to find fault.  I
guess that is what I am doing, isn't it?

Answer to Bread Dr:

Where are we, the critics, with our lives?  'We are free of the mind control,
battering, exploitation and deception of a corrupt, sadisitic guru.  We are
reclaiming our reality, our feelings, and our minds.  We are living our own
lives free of enslavement to con-artists.  We are learning how to be active
instead of passive and masochistic.  We are taking some time in our lives to
attempt to spare others the betrayal and devastation that we experienced.  We
are attempting to alert parents in SYDA to the fact that their young
daughters are not safe from sexual abuse there, because their Guru will not
protect them, she will only protect the abusers - whom she is one of.

So that's where we are with our lives.  It feels really good.

Subj:  Re: Shridevi
Date:  96-02-29 01:19:12 EST
From:  CHIKKAR         

Shridevi,
I am not a spy, only a seeker of truth. I apologize that you thought I was
trivializing your appalling experiences. As a feminist, I am outraged at the
knowledge that ANYONE has been abused or raped or threatened with violence.
All I am asking is for people to concretely share the facts with others so
that we can make educated decisions re our future in this yoga organization.
In no way was I suggesting that your story is untrue. I was mainly interested
in finding other sources of disclosure re said issues. I have read the open
letter, the swami's letter, the New Yorker, and the package GM distributed in
1986-1986, regarding her brother. I also read the coevolution quarterly
article and purchased a kit from cult awareness. My only problem with this
board has been the fact that pusilanimous commentary has taken space away
from honest research and disclosure. Many of the comments in recent weeks
have been comic relief. A subject so serious should be explored as such. I
was not aware of a *list* until presently. I had heard of verbal threats but
did not realize the severity you speak of.
Forgive my ignorance. Anyone out there wiling to share?

Chikkar

Subj:  CHIKKAR & pusillanimity
Date:  96-02-29 10:36:16 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

Chikkar,

Q.  Why don't people disclose evidence and their identities online?  Why are
they, to use your word, posting "pusillanimously"?

A.  Because they don't want to wake up one day with a Lebanese screwdriver
stuck into their eye socket.

Chikkar, your post begs the question--"tell your story online Chikkar, what
evidence do you have?"  But I do not ask it, for I would hate to see you have
to sell your house, car, whatever, to pay for legal fees when it becomes a
zombie army's seva to "get you."

But that's not why I'm writing now.  I want to say to you, cut some slack for
the plural forms of expression here: humor, anger, Charlieism, legalistic
bantering.  

Many have explored your boy/girl-scout approach to whistle-blowing and a
search for justice.  I endorse the approach fully.  But it's a tough road.
Try it yourself.  It's a long haul, and you'll hit many brick walls. You will
also become a target.  You are 100% right: formal disclosure, evidence, and
due process are an appropriate focus for certain kinds of ethical ends.    

So, you ask, why all this other talk on the chat boards, talk you find
irrelevant or perhaps even disturbing?  The answer is: for those who have
been through the SYDA meat-grinder, other kinds of expression having to do
with recovery become important.  Their talk may not sound important to you,
but it's important to them.

This board is living evidence that the sheer existence of a free speech area
is enormously liberating for some ex-SYDAites, people whose lives matter,
people who were hitherto consigned to silent exile.  My sense is that people
here (some of whom write me privately but seldom post) gravitate towards the
kind of expression that suits them.  So we have a mixed bag of expression
online.  

There should be a mixture of SYDA apologists, dissenters, and outsiders; a
mixture of ranters, comedians, philosophers, zombies; a mixture of realists,
idealists, and Marxists.  After all, this is an AOL chat area!  There should
be plural threads running simultaneously, love fests, flame wars, people
leaving in a huff, people wanting the information number to SYDA foundation.
This plurality is healthy.  I say let it stand.

I also say stick with your boy scout approach, for it is an important one.
But the fact is, no one (that I am aware of) has the financial resources to
take on the SYDA foundation--yet.  But if we all stick with it, as Shridevi
suggests, the truth will eventually come out. 

The legal system is expensive:  it is easy to discredit and silence
moderately wealthy people who have a lawyer when you are an ENORMOUSLY
wealthy multinational corporation with a legal staff.  Especially if you are
a corporation that doesn't conduct any ACTUAL business to speak of, but
merely exists as a slave machine for the psycho-fantasies of a snitty
boss-woman.    

Subj:  Re:Rabbit story flaw
Date:  96-02-29 15:29:46 EST
From:  Robert193       


The following excerpt is from "Leaving the Ashram" in the July/August 1992
issue of Common Boundary.  One section of the article  tells the story of
Jim and Dodie, a couple who for many years were leaders in the John-Roger
cult.  This little excerpt exposes the flaw in attempting to apply the Rabbit
story to what is happening in this forum.  
==================
	For months [after leaving the cult], Jim and Dodie talked nonstop -- to a
few close friends who had left the group with them and to eachother, late
into the night.  They talked to sort out what was true from what was false in
their experience, to review, in the light of their new awareness, encounters
from nine years in the movement.
	Once Jim saw how foolish he had been to place his trust in John-Roger's
claims to spiritual superiority, he was overcome by rage.  "I was furious for
a long time.  I went around the house screaming about how I'd been duped...."
	The very fact that Jim could feel duped was a breakthrough of sorts, because
it meant rejecting the sacrosanct Insight philosophy that "you create your
own reality."  (In the seminar, participants shake admonishing fingers at one
another and say, "Unh unh unh.... don't be a victim.!")  Now Jim came to see
how that philosophy blinded group members to spiritual fraud.  One could
never get anywhere by accusing the guru -- of controling and infantilizing
his followers, for instance -- because the others in the group would simply
nod their heads knowingly and say that it was one's own fault for giving up
one's power.  This kind of shame the victim logic, abhorrent in cases of
child abuse, seemed to be business as usual in MSIA, according to Jim.	
==================
 

Subj:  Zombieproof post to Shridevi
Date:  96-02-29 19:20:50 EST
From:  Howie Sm        

**********ZOMBIES, DON'T BOTHER, FOR YOU WILL FIND THIS
INDIGESTIBLE************

Dear Shridevi,

Your posts are fabulous, and open up new areas for us all to consider.

In the course of my travels, I uncovered much abuse in spiritual
organizations.  Also, I had to listen to SO MUCH ROT.  I'm sure you know what
I mean on both these points.  One thing is clear:  any future intelligent
society will look back on our times as the dark ages of spiritual inquiry.
We have indifferent and underfunded scientists on one hand, and throwback
fanatics on the other.  So what has not yet taken place is:  a frank
investigation of so-called "religious experience."  Yes, the future will
probably see this as the dark ages in the field of consciousness--a wasteland
of pop fanaticism and narcissistic consumerism.  Ironically, the dead-end
road of pop-spiritual consumerism is founded on the myth that we are now in
the Aquarian age of consciousness-pioneering!  

It could be such an Aquarian age--if people would drop the dark,
culturally-tinted paradigms, paradigms that were developed in cultures in
which women and whole classes of people were systematically treated as
sub-human.  

You are right in describing SYDA as a metaphor, a microcosm.  Few things are
more interesting than power structures: how behaviors and thought-systems
coalesce within the crucible of power dynamics.  There is nothing special
about SYDA--what is seen there can be found in any totalizing ideological
power structure. Permit me a biological analogy:  SYDA is like a primitive
organism that is suitable for dissection precisely because of its simplistic
makeup.  In being primitive and simplistic, it shows the chief issues of
human nature in relief, without the confounding presence of intricate or
subtle structures.  This involves one of the paradoxes well known to medical
research:  Intelligent researchers, interested in learning about intelligent
life, begin by studying dumb life.  So SYDA provides a rich field for
investigation.  

Though I am sympathetic to metaphysics and epistemology, in my view, a
perverted emphasis on these subjects are to blame for the blind eye the
spiritual sheep have turned towards rampant abuses of power.  Narcissistic
metaphysical people are zombie-stooge fodder for any Hitler type that comes
down the pike.  The way SYDA easily cranks out zombie-stooges should raise
the eyebrows of political scienti