Subj: Misplaced Gratitude Date: 96-05-19 07:34:08 EDT From: Cker Re: Howie's characterization of my "gratitude" as "misplaced": There is no doubt in my mind that I can take, and am taking, something good away from this whole chapter in my life, and that this is a positive thing. *That* is where my gratitude comes in. It is not "gratitude to the guru," SY-style. I can understand people feeling victimized by SY. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that people (including myself) have been and are victimized by their involvement on that path. To the extent one is vulnerable to the mind control, and through no fault of one's own, SY creates victims. For some, especially those who lived in the ashram and gave up significant chunks of the prime of their lives, it may be worse than for others. I admit that it's not outside the realm of possibility that I may, at some point, "get in touch with" my "SY victim" side. There is much I gave up to be involved in SY. But "victim" is just not a role I relate to as a former devotee, right now. I did go through a period of significant mental, emotional, spiritual, and (sort of) physical torture coming to the decision to leave SY. I am so glad that part is done. This is what I'm grateful for: my experience in SY also broadened my exposure and *opened* my mind (really!) to the existence of what I have heard referred to as the "perennial wisdom," basic truth dressed in, sometimes hidden in, different cultural and historical perspectives. I learned to consider spiritual issues in my life in a fresh context after being raised in a rigid Catholic mold. Leaving SY frees me to explore the range of that "perennial wisdom." Having a familiarity with the trappings and traps of organized religion, I'd like to believe that my life experience - including SY - has freed me from the need to explore my spiritual life within a context of other-oriented "approval for performance." (I've memorized two "Catechisms" now - the Baltimore version and the Ganeshpuri version. Enough!) I just finished Ken Wilber's excellent book about his and his wife's battle with her cancer, "Grace and Grit." He describes how that experience - a decidedly "victimizing" one all around - propelled them on their individual spiritual paths and the one they shared all too briefly. Wilber digresses for a chapter to talk about his theory of the evolution of consciousness within the context of human existence. He speaks of "exoteric" religion, relying on a community which agrees on a set of common myths or constructs to explain "truth" (and often gets so caught up in defending the myths that the truth is lost) versus "esoteric" spirituality, the inner journey of discovery of the "perennial wisdom" that a person can take only when they're ready leave the commitment to the exoteric myths behind. My experience in SY prepared me to hear and understand what Wilber has to say. As I read his discussion, I realized that, having been exposed to alternative ways of approaching a spiritual life, I'm now ready to launch a much more personal search for truth, a true inner journey of discovery of the the perennial wisdom that lies within me, as it does in all of us. That feels right to me, right now. It makes sense to me. I am not uncomfortable with the knowledge that I arrived at this place having traveled through SY. Don't get me wrong: I do not recommend that route! But it was the route I took, and there's no sense in me getting all upset about it now. It just was where I was at the time, and I learned from it. I feel at peace with that part of it. For that, I *am* grateful. It is not "misplaced." It's inside me, where it belongs. My best to you all, Cker Subj: Replies to Cker (1) Date: 96-05-19 11:28:11 EDT From: Fibonacci8 << I tutored and submitted to tutoring to improve my "understanding" to no avail. I revealed that I was having a problem reconciling this only once, and very obliquely, to the center leader. The reaction was clear, unconditional, and reflexive contempt at even the suggestion of doubt. >> Yes, contempt. But was it really contempt "at even the suggestion of doubt" or was it contempt for something else. I would imagine the contempt you felt directed at your doubt was a decoy on the part of your center leader. Why would he feel contempt for your doubt? What had you done to deserve contempt? Your center leader's contempt may have appeared to be heading in your direction, but I'll bet was really aimed at his own suppressed doubts, at the well suppressed knowledge he really has of syda's big lie. When you revealed your doubts to him you were threatening him in an extreme way. You were threatening to awaken the tightly corked genie that could smash his whole smug fantasy in one blow. I used to be afraid of having my smug little syda fantasy life destroyed. I heard about things I refused to investigate. I hid behind the lie that my own inner experiences validated and exonerated syda and its gurus. What was I hiding from? What were we all hiding from when we put on our blinders along with our rudraksha beads? I think I was hiding from my vulnerability. Syda seemed to offer me a path to invulnerability, to a fantastic and infantile vision of safety. Having rejected syda, I find myself returning to personhood, becoming a regular person again. Does this seem familiar? This is how I see it: We have descended from the high mountains of discipleship and supreme attainment, and where have we arrived? We have arrived at our brokenness, our human frailty, our flawed natures, our weakness. We have arrived at our vulnerability, the same vulnerability which once led us blindly into betrayal and humiliation. But that was because we were afraid of our vulnerability and we were running away from it. This time we have arrived at our vulnerability in acceptance of it. What was all that nonsense about putting on the broad smile of the fantasy life? Why did I think I needed to dress up my limping psyche in the royal colors of the magic kingdom and the phony pride of denial? Siddha yoga appeared to be a fortress which would protect me forever from my vulnerability. After all those years I am discovering that my vulnerability needs me to accept it, not to run from it, or destroy it, or transcend it. It now seems to me that this understanding unlocked the gate which held me inside syda long after my inner voice told me to leave. So that's how I see it, and that's why I think your center leader was hiding by directing his contempt your way. It was frightening and painful for me to go through all this stuff, and I'll bet your center leader smells that same fear and pain inside himself. When you revealed your doubts to him he ran from the scent of his own fear and pain as fast as he could, and then hid from his own running in the form of contempt for your doubts. Subj: Replies to Cker (2) Date: 96-05-19 11:30:05 EDT From: Fibonacci8 << So, maybe I was not a willing accomplice in the seduction at the beginning, but I continued the affair long after I knew it could have ended. >> For me the important thing in this matter of seduction and complicity is understanding it. I found that I couldn't rest or feel free until I understood what it was that seduced me, and what it was in me that responded to the seduction. Understanding what seduced me was pretty easy to see once I started looking. Understanding what it was in me that responded to it took more time, and is still going on. The point for me is to understand how the seductive offer fit into my personal makeup -- my strengths, my weaknesses, my confusion, my intellect, the whole package. The point is to understand myself, not to blame myself. This understanding has come painfully but it has been liberating. It is self knowledge. In a strange and unexpected way, this is the kind of self knowledge I always wanted. It was my aspiration for this kind of self knowledge that led me to pop hinduism in the first place. A couple of weeks ago I posted a quote from Andrew Harvey on the subject of abusive gurus. Part of the quote is very germane to this business of suduction and complicity, so I'm reposting that part of it: << So what kind of wisdom could they possibly have if they are first indulging in that kind of abuse and then denying it in sometimes criminal ways? We really do have to face the full extent of their failure, and that is very painful, because we then have to face our illusions about them and the ways in which we colluded with them in our hope for magical solutions and transformations on the cheap. >> (Yoga Journal, July 95) That last sentence is a little harsh but it aims at self understanding, not at blame. Andrew Harvey speaks for me on this point. Like he says, it has been painful. It has also been liberating because it is leading me to self understanding, self acceptance, and a sense of freedom and integrity. Subj: Re: Agni's dream Date: 96-05-19 11:55:34 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Thanks for your Amrit dream, Agni. Dakshina Magazine! Setting up a puja on a bicycle! Not far from the truth, is it? What madness we all lost ourselves in. The puzzling thing is that we aren't mad people. I think we bought into the madness because of some kind of great desperation covered over with equally great hope. Still it's puzzling. Humor has helped me a lot in this climb out of the pit of madness. Poking fun at the madness somehow makes it all a little easier, and a lot more fun. Fibs Subj: Re:Fibs to Cker Date: 96-05-19 12:10:16 EDT From: Hrdaya2914 Fibs: brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. This helps enormously in my own process of trying to figure out what the heck is happening to me vis a vis all of this. I do not yet begin to understand what my own "seduction and complicity" is about but yes, it's certainly at the crux of things. As human beings we gravitate towards whatever we hope will make us feel "complete" -- relationships, big experiences, communities, ideologies. SY offers so many of these avenues to completeness -- ON THE SURFACE. And, as with other things that don't quite work out for us -- that relationship we thought was going to save our life, that drug that momentarily gave us great psychological insights and dulled the pain, that community where everyone seemed so much like us, that ideology with all the answers -- it's very hard to say, "Oh well, I was wrong -- next!!!" Perhaps the real question we have to ask ourselves is, "What is it about me that makes me think I'm so fundamentally lacking as a human being?" (Dissent, thanks for initially pointing this out to me in your inimitable tough-love style! It didn't really click for me before because in my pain, I couldn't get past the "tough" part.) Fibs, yoou said, "Siddha Yoga appeared to be a fortress which would protect me forever from my vulnerability....I am discovering that my vulnerability needs me to accept it, not run from it, or destroy it, or transcend it....this understanding unlocked the gate which held me inside syda long after my inner voice told me to leave." Someone else on these boards some time ago said SY is a beautiful cage without bars that people are afraid to leave. As you have put it so beautifully, the bars are our own vulnerabilities, our fears of being weak and having all this "stuff" to deal with. Someone, or many someones, along the way let us know it was not okay to be who we are. One the first things you hear in SY is "You are divine, you are great," which strikes most of us as either totally unbelievable or as a major relief. The next thing you hear is "Your divinity and greatness are covered by layers and layers of impurities (your personality, your individuality, your belief system, your human emotions -- dreadful stuff!) that have to be scraped off of you by the Guru combined with your own self effort." Catch 22: if I leave before I've been "purified," what will I do now? Who else will put up with me in this sorry state except these wonderful people and my wonderful Guru? Am I still God inside? Or do I now have to accept that I'm just a human being, a work in progress? Wait, that would mean I have no "grace," no "divine protection," that I'm just as much of a loser now as I thought I was x number of years ago before I was assured I was divine!!! This is really overwhelming stuff for most people. I suspect the contemptuous ones, SY folk who put others down for not being completely "surrendered," have the most to lose, the least sense of self. I want to make one point though, in case anyone is wanting to go look up Andrew Harvey: he has become the guru of anti-guruism. His statements about the pitfalls of guru paths are nullified, I think, by these workshops he gives on merging with the goddess and the mini-cult following he has acquired. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him! Subj: Bob delurks 1/5 Date: 96-05-19 12:45:40 EDT From: Bob1258487 PART ONE OF FIVE _______________ To Cker and Dissent, I agree with Cker that SY may broaden our experience by showing us something that we would never have experienced otherwise. However I differ with both you and Dissent as to what the nature of that something may be. Cker refers to it as the "perennial widom," a basic truth. Dissent refers to it as "hypnotic self-suggestion". I think perhaps Cker may be closer - I think it *is* a basic truth of our existence, but something a bit less grandiose than our religious leaders would have us believe. Without the religious trappings, what do we really have? In the same way the aids virus is so effective because it attacks the very system our bodies use to fight viruses, I believe the "divine experience" syndrome may be effective because it works on parts of our brain used to create our emotions, so we can not easily examine it with our minds. I do not believe the actual physical experiences are hypnotic suggestion, though the fact that we end up thinking of them positively may be a result of the supportive religious atmosphere in an intensive. (BVena mentioned something like this the other day, when he talked about some drug experiment that had different results depending on the suggestions given to the subject while on the drug.) My theory is that "kriyas," white and blue lights, laughing, snorting, tinglings in the spine, and other overwhelming physical experiences ARE within us - our nervous system, that is - and accessible through some kind of epileptic-like action. There is apparently a way to bring on this epileptic-like syndrome through external means. Perhaps it is the stuff of life itself, just like they say. Except. . . do we have to buy any of the rest of it? Does it really lead to any spiritual development? Or is it merely an interesting side light of the fact that we are human. Perhaps we are merely overwhelming our human apparatus with too much current and pressing some "religious experience" button over and over, like Pavlov's dogs. Sure we can do it. Does it really do us any good in the end? Some people have kriyas long after they have left SY. Are they developing into self-realized beings? Or are they merely left with a chronic case of epilepsy? Once the rituals and rites are stripped away, what are we really left with? Sure, there is more here than science can explain. But I don't think the gurus have explained it either; they have just contained it in a socially acceptable mass of rituals. To give you guys an idea of just how close this all is to the experience of epileptics, I will quote from some posts I've collected on the internet. I've removed the names, since I'm not sure the people would like to have their id's spread all over the net. If you really want to find them, you can search AltaVista or deja news. I assure you, these folks don't feel that they are on the path of self realization (with one exception, Post 6!). Please understand, also. I am not discounting the various unexplainable psychic experiences that happen to people. I am merely saying that perhaps we should stop assuming they have any positive or negative content and that they have anything to do with spiritual evolution. CONTINUED IN NEXT MESSAGE Subj: Bob delurks 2/5 Date: 96-05-19 12:45:53 EDT From: Bob1258487 PART TWO OF FIVE _______________ POST 1: <> ______________________________________ POST 2: <> ______________________________________ POST 3: <> ______________________________________ CONTINUED IN NEXT MESSAGE Subj: Bob delurks 3/5 Date: 96-05-19 12:46:08 EDT From: Bob1258487 PART THREE OF FIVE _______________ POST 4: <> ______________________________________ POST 5: <<. . .at least in the case of TLE [Temporal Lobe Epilepsy] there are some non-seizure experiences that are very interesting and even pleasant. Some of these stopped when I went on anti-convulsants (Tegretol). I miss having had synesthesia which is the mixing up of senses (I saw sounds as light patterns). However I still have like the hypergraphia. :-) ...I also often have an unusual experience of the passage of time--maybe this is why I like the term "temporal". I think what the one person wrote about is an enhanced religiosity where one is likely to see a spiritual experience everywhere. Oliver Sacks has written a lot about people who have had unique experiences probably related to TLE...>> ______________________________________ POST 6: <> ______________________________________ CONTINUED IN NEXT MESSAGE Subj: Bob delurks 4/5 Date: 96-05-19 12:46:23 EDT From: Bob1258487 PART FOUR OF FIVE ____________ POST 7: <> ______________________________________ POST 8: <> ______________________________________ POST 9: Before I had my first grand mal seizure I used to just have auras. A feeling of deja-vu that draws you in to it. I would concentrate on the aura almost as if I were taking a strange journey into the mind until one day it happened, I seized. As the years went on I learned not to be drawn in by the feeling and now I feel that I can "talk myself out of a seizure". I don't really have a technique per say, but I just don't let my mind explore the aura, I concentrate on something else and usually try to talk to myself in my mind about something else. Staying relaxed is also key.>> ______________________________________ CONTINUED IN NEXT MESSAGE Subj: Bob delurks 5/5 Date: 96-05-19 12:46:34 EDT From: Bob1258487 PART FIVE OF FIVE ____________ POST 10: << I will get these feelings in my head that begin as almost a tickling in the back of my head. I feel kind of lightheaded, then I feel like I have to go to the bathroom. I have had blood work and a 48 hour eeg and have been told that I am fine in that respect. Is this some kind of seizure? >> ______________________________________ POST 11: << I have had that EXACT feeling!!! It almost feels like your brain is turning to water and draining down your spinal column. Is this it? I can actually HEAR it! I have asked my husband many times if he can hear it, but he says he can't. It seems loud to me, so I always think others can hear it! My doctor can't explain it!>> ______________________________________ (BOB) And now, if you folks are still with me, I'd like to direct you all to the Blessings web page (http://maths.uwa.edu.au/~hartley/rprice/bob.html) where a very interesting, but copyrighted essay by neurologist Dr. Robert Winer is posted. It seems that the Vineyard church in Toronto has what we SYDAites might call a "shaktipat" service nearly every day of the week, attended by thousands. Of course they have a slightly different interpretation of it, and from what I've read, it appears that it can be transmitted from prayer group to prayer group, without the aid of a "guru". Just another thing to think about... Subj: Re:Bob delurks 5/5 Date: 96-05-19 14:17:59 EDT From: BVena Per your posts Bob, THAT'S IT THAT'S IT THAT'S IT! To be more clear, I was waiting for some info about "outside" kundalini like experiences. Thanks a bunch Beau Yes I've droped the "spiritual" name finally. If people guess who I am and if the Guru SS comes after me I'll be ready for the fight. Subj: Kundalini, Alpha, Anchovies? Date: 96-05-20 00:18:53 EDT From: Cker This is an area touched on in the Kundalini discussion in "Hinduism," that these experiences of "energy" are indigenous to the human system and that whole systems of spiritual thought have evolved over the ages to explain very common (even if "supernatural") phenomenon. I was not taught about this energy in my mainline religious indoctrination/education, but I reinterpreted pre-SY experiences (memories? fantasies? transcendance? lactose intolerance?) of that energy within the context of Sw. Kripananda's Kundalini talks (a mainstay in intensives until several years ago), and this fascinated me. It was a very big part of the seduction, that the guru could awaken and guide this mysterious energy I'd never heard anyone acknowledge before. (Christian mysticism was taboo, especially in the 50s and early 60s.) And *this* "energy management program" worked in a "very" convenient way! All my shortcomings were kriyas, just adding a little bad karma for "bad" behavior to the *guru's* load; she would do all the work. "And all I must do is sit in love with you..." even if I do develop neurological damage in my legs from trying to sit crosslegged. (Ooooh...I still get tingly listening to "From the Heart" - gotta watch that!) I believe that human beings are more than a collection of cells and electrical impulses, and that knowing this side of myself is an important part of life. But natural processes can go haywire, creating disease which one might dangerously misinterpret as "kriya." (Variation on the theme: There are certain "karmic visitations," like HIV, that I hear-tell are particularly nettlesome for SYDA. While the line was, "You don't have to go to a cave. You don't have to leave your family...", it turns out you *do" have to create your own "remote site sadhana center" to work out *that* "kriya," because the ashram is only for "healthy" people. But HIV+ is not synonymous with "sick." So, why the exile? This is one of the "manifestations of the energy" that, apparently, the guru does not have a handle on, and I just couldn't seem to get my mind around the fact that, with all her power, she would need to exclude anyone. Wasn't she taking refuge in.... Oh never mind.... Cheerily, we can say, "Ah, the satellite Intensives make it possible for 'those people' to access grace." Next thing you know, the Prasad Project promotional videos will feature leper colonies with dishes.) This is like shooting fish in a barrel, isn't it, once you begin to admit to yourself all the BS passed off as "understanding"? Subj: random thoughts Date: 96-05-20 08:06:22 EDT From: Dissent222 Dear Folks - It's been so helpful being on these boards lately - I'm kind of blown away by the insight and the depth of understanding that is being shared here. It is so great to hear others expose the craziness and the fraudulence that was so rife in the syda culture. I know there was a lot that felt loving and good about life in syda. And that all institutions are always going to be composed of light and dark elements. But that doesn't do it as an apology for syda. It wasn't just "into each life some rain must fall." There was more corruption, deception and cruelty than is tolerable. And when it was exposed, we only got lies and distortion in response, only cover-ups and whitewashing. OK, the church blew it with covering up pedophile priests for years, but that's changing. Is syda ever going to change? I think not, because its leader is assigned the status of divine monarch - and the bottom line in syda is not the teachings of yoga or hinduism or of any philosophical or religious system. The bottom line is obey the guru, or else. At this stage of my life, I no longer want to assign anyone in any relationship, institutional or otherwise, that kind of control over my life. When you give power of attorney to someone, it's because you're incapable of making rational decisions or exercising judgment. Remember the impassioned talk Namdev gave in some program or other about how "the guru taught me what to eat, how to walk, how to dress, how to speak. I didn't know what to do until she taught me. I was wandering like a beggar, a straw in the wind" etc etc etc. Does anyone remember that? It was so moving to me at the time. Everyone was crying. Now I SHUDDER!!! I GAG!!!! We deemed ourselves incompetent and we gave power of attorney to GM - we did, guys. We said, like Namdev, "I don't know how to do anything, I'm a helpless straw in the wind, pick me up, put me down, I'll do whatever you say. Let's make a deal, I'll do whatever you say, I'll wear poofy hair tchotchkes, I'll go numb, I'll go deaf and blind, I'll be good, I promise -- I'll even listen to you sing. Anything, just do my life for me, your way. Your way works and mine doesn't." OY. It is indeed, as CKer has pointed out, EMBARRASSING. GM IS NOT WHO SHE SAYS SHE IS, WHO SHE APPEARS TO BE. She is not what we wanted to make her. It's embarrassing, but it is not my fault and it is not yours. Like Fibs said (so perfectly), this is about understanding, not blame. Yes, NOW, only in the leaving of syda, am I gaining the kind of self-knowledge I was looking for. I took a circuitous route. Please, nobody write that that's the grace of a siddha - please, don't tell me that anymore. Plenty of other people reach self-awareness without being tortured by a maniac guru. The good news is, many of us don't have to make anyone into 'the guru' anymore. Nor do we have to be good and obey and give power of attorney. We are in our right minds, we can make choices and decisions, and we can exercise judgment. I LOVE IT! Stray thoughts, pardon my babbling. P.S. - Bob, some of the epileptic experience talks were like quotations from some of mine. This is fascinating terrain to be explored. Very briefly, I think hypnotic and self-suggestion elements are involved in syda, but that they combine with the physiological effects that are triggered. But more on this some other time. Meanwhile, I have 3 arthroscopic knee surgeries and a chronic back condition as a result of the so-called "control of the shakti" in syda. Control, my TOS. Subj: Re: random thoughts (1) Date: 96-05-20 13:19:18 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Regarding gaining self-knowledge after leaving syda, Dissent wrote: << Please, nobody write that that's the grace of a siddha - please, don't tell me that anymore. Plenty of other people reach self-awareness without being tortured by a maniac guru. >> One thing I discovered during my long years in syda is that people do slowly grow up, even if most never reach full personhood or mature adulthood. Growing up isn't easy in this era in America. The culture works against us in so many ways. But people do make some progress on the bombed out road to adulthood, both in the ashram and in the world at large. Sometimes I'd spend time away from the ashram and I'd notice that old friends and relatives had moved forward in their personal journeys and grown up a little. Then I'd go back to the ashram. My friends there would tell me the good news about their sadhana -- how the guru took this illusion away, or that childish expectation, or how some other immature characteristic vanished after an ordeal in their seva or personal relationships. I was seeing the same thing both in the ashram and in the world. Inch by inch, people were growing up. The odd thing was that in the ashram this was all attributed to the grace of the guru. (A technique which helped them hide their anxiety far from view, but that's another discussion.) The longer I remained in SY, the clearer this became. I began to realize that "sadhana" was a fancy word for growing up. Here we all were, a bunch of people who were terrified of having to grow up in this world. We ran into the arms of "guru mother" who tucked us in to our storybook beds where we dreamed our childish dreams. And despite all this people did grow up, slowly and in the name of "sadhana". What was the role of the ashram and the guru in all this? Not fostering healthy growth towards adulthood, that's for sure. Instead of mature adulthood, syda people became dysfunctionally dependent on an abusive leader who took all the credit and kept them feeling dependent. I think the role of the ashram and guru was to divert anxiety out of view and provide a soothing environment and belief system. Once the devotees feel soothed and safe, they allow themselves to go through the normal process of growing up that would have happened anyhow. Unfortunately the results become perverted by the dysfunctional setup of the whole thing. Subj: Re: random thoughts (2) Date: 96-05-20 13:21:29 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Dissent wrote: << We said, like Namdev, "I don't know how to do anything, I'm a helpless straw in the wind, pick me up, put me down, I'll do whatever you say. Let's make a deal, I'll do whatever you say, I'll wear poofy hair tchotchkes, I'll go numb, I'll go deaf and blind. >> Speaking of hair.... The syda hair styles and dress codes are very restrained and socially inoffensive. By contrast, many of the generation x styles are the opposite -- spiked hair, green hair, grotesque body piercing, etc. Yet there's something similar in the motivations that underlie these opposite styles. Both demure devotees and outrageous generation xers start out with a sense of being lost, a longing for belonging, a need for some kind of identity in a world they can't relate to. Solution: find a guru to provide that identity and its associated stylistic behaviors, as the Namdev quote describes so well. For the generation xers, there's no guru but they manage to accomplish the same thing by identifying with a group and adopting its behaviors and self destructive attitudes. Result for both groups: goodbye anxiety, hello denial, welcome abuse. << Meanwhile, I have 3 arthroscopic knee surgeries and a chronic back condition as a result of the so-called "control of the shakti" in syda. Control, my TOS. >> Control of the devotees is more like it. Before SY the devotees were out of control and the shakti was suppressed and under control. During SY the devotees were suppressed and under control, and the shakti was out of control. After SY the former devotees are learning self control and the shakti is considered a neutral or objective phenomenon. Subj: Gnosis Mag. Date: 96-05-20 17:11:39 EDT From: Hrdaya2914 I wanted to alert y'all to the Spring 1996 issue of Gnosis, which is about Western "inner traditions," if that phrase doesn't barf you out to the max at this point. This issue's theme is "East Meets West" and it provides, among other things, one of the sanest discussions of the dilemma of guru paths I've ever read. Highly recommended. Four stars. Subj: Re Bob and Cker (1 of 2) Date: 96-05-20 11:05:47 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 2 Dear Cker, Thanks very much for your insightful and moving posts. And apologies for seeming to critique you last week; I assure you that wasn't my conscious intent, but--now looking back--I guess it was my unconscious intent. I'm not very good at holding back what I think on these matters! I might as well stop trying. As for this message, one of the pitfalls of written discussion is that one can't dwell on points of agreement, for that amounts to repeating what someone else has just said. I do not solve that problem here; I don't mention the many points you raised which I feel deep sympathy with. If you remember that I do have sympathies with your point of view, that will help place my comments below in a better context. You say <<>> I agree with this statement, which isn't saying much. That is, your statement isn't saying much, nor is my admission that I agree to it saying much since the statement is a so general as to be fortune-cookieish. In general (and not referring to Cker) I dislike the appeal to nonspecific generalities as a response to flesh-and-blood people who are experiencing real and specific problems. First that approach is so magisterial in tone as to be inhuman. That kind of appeal reminds me of the useless boilerplate sentences people got in response letters from Gurumayi (i.e., her staff). SYDA yoga was all about that: "You are having uncontrollable kriyas and bouts of unconsciousness? Eat a sweet and repeat the mantra!" One small aside: I find the discussion of kundalini on AOL and the Internet to be on such a low level as to be disturbing and embarrassing. (I would guess that you do also.) Kundalini discussions in the New Age cultural context, in general, seem to be little better than a repository of evidence for naysayers who wish to prove spirituality and disturbed thinking are coextensive. (Not that we are going to win the prize for literature over here!) Bob's citations seemed far more substantive. Where are you are going with this reference to Internet kundalini discussions? After all you've written here, I am to take it you still go for that sort of thing? SEE PART 2 Subj: Re:Re Bob and Cker (2 of 2) Date: 96-05-20 19:29:00 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 OF 2 Dear Cker, You say, <<>> Agreed 100%. I too don't take the mechanistic view of the universe too far. NEARLY NO ONE DOES, except hard-line atheists. Scientists, whose number include Muslims, Orthodox Jews, born-again Christians, and Siddha Yogis, are not "mechanists." I don't think Bob is. I want to insist on this point because I find that it is important to value things that yield only partial, and PRACTICAL solutions to human problems. Like auto mechanics, medicine, engineering, and dentistry. It's the need for totalizing answers--which becomes an addiction after a while--that makes people snap at the bait of gibberish spiritual generalities. When it comes time to pick up the real human wreckage, it is the people who have the humility to work on problems a step at a time that can really offer compassionate and effective responses. Fine scientists are among those humble people who do REAL WORK--instead of gaily distributing the TOS of New Age quacks and lobotomat philosophy to lost people WHO REALLY SHOULD BE CONSIDERING ALTERNATIVE FRAMES OF REFERENCE. Don't get me wrong--this is not a plug for science. It is a plea for a more humane and less hubristic mode of discourse among all who take it upon themselves to distribute advice. Fibonacci is right--one small step is better than a landfill of grandiose platitudes. What Bob seems to be giving (and Bob correct me please if I misread) is not a mechanistic "answer" as to the nature of God. Rather, Bob's message seemed to be a response to the monotone, SYDAesque conceptual framework that these discussions seem to get trapped in; a stimulus to move discussion in a direction that encompasses not only the spiritual and emotional aftermath of SYDA, but the nervous system aftermath. I understand and accept that these discussions will tend to be trapped in SYDAesque thought. Becoming de-brainwashed is not an overnight process. <<>> That's what I've thought for a long time. Yet zombies are coming out of the SYDA punch-presses at an alarming rate even as we speak. As long as this is the case, there is a need for those who know to take the effort to REPEAT THE OBVIOUS--just as MDSNMAN said beautifully a few days ago. P. S.--That's why GoldenSeva's criticism of the "repetitiveness" of posts was, in my reading, a sign of bias. What could be more repetitive than the rituals of religion? I don't have a problem with that, nor does GoldenSeva. What was GoldenSeva criticizing then? The need for repeating public service messages about SYDA corruption? Subj: Why he left the cult 1/2 Date: 96-05-21 06:20:21 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Excerpted from his 1991 book, the following is Feurstein explaining why he left the cult he was involved in. I post it because what he says resonates with our recent discussion of the SYDA cult. PART 1 OF 2 BEGIN QUOTED MATERIAL <<>> SEE PART 2 Subj: Why he left the cult 2/2 Date: 96-05-21 06:21:01 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 FEURSTEIN QUOTED MATERIAL CONTINUED<<>> <<>>END QUOTED MATERIAL Subj: SY thinking Date: 96-05-21 09:46:00 EDT From: BVena Here as an example of typical SY thinking, as it applies to every day life. I've recently gotten a puppy from the local animal shelter. Bet we could play this game with just about any situation. I go to pick out a dog: SY thinking. "God has led me to this puppy because it's been here as long as they keep them. It will be destroyed tomorrow if not taken. Normal thinking. "This is the only dog here that's not going to weigh 100 lbs later so I'll take her." I wanted a male dog because it's easier to neuter, I wind up with a female: SY thinking. "I didn't know that female dogs don't chew up everything the way little boy dogs do. God has protected me." Normal thinking. "That was the only dog there that's not going to weigh 100 lbs later." Dog has a host of animal shelter related illnesses$$$$$: SY thinking. "This dog is costing me a fortune. The guru must know I wrote bad thinks on AOL." Normal thinking. "I hope this diarrhea stops soon. I wonder how much it costs to have the carpets cleaned." Puppy fur falls out. Dog goes through an ugly phase: SY thinking. "If I was still in SY this wouldn't be happening. I would have a pretty dog." Normal thinking. "What did you say about my dog??!!!" Dog gets over shelter shock and becomes affectionate. Sleeps in the crook of my arm: SY thinking. "I have an attachment! I can't have an attachment! What if god takes it away from me?" Normal thinking. "Hello pooty pie, did you come to take a nap with me?" By the way, when I took care of Nityananda Jr's chow, I fed it hamburger that was kept in the Amrit walk in fridge. Rhadananda went around screaming "It's a test, It's a test!" Beau Subj: The Howie Sahasranam Date: 96-05-21 06:30:37 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, A great deal of posting activity about Siddha Yoga is taking place in the Ethics area; much more than here. Specifically, it is in the ETHICS/SIDDHA YOGA ETHICS DEBATE area. (To get there, type keyword RELIGION, and then click RELIGION & ETHICS FORUM, and then the ETHICS topic message board.) As for the pressing SYDA question regarding "what Howie is," which many have taken up (see previous posts, here and on the other folder), I believe that my disciples, who have wisely chosen me as their object of focus, are coming up with a Howie Sahasranam. The first verses are-- <<<(IN MANTRIC DRONING STYLE) Howeeeee, is a coweeeee, namah namah (breathe!)/ Howeeeeee is a womaaaan, namah namah (breathe!)/Howeeeeee is a baaaarking dog, namah namah (breathe!)/Howeeeeeee is a fallen yogeeeeee, namah namah (breathe!)/ . . . . . Subj: Howie's having a kriya Date: 96-05-21 11:19:04 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Cker says <<>> Ain't that the truth! For your amusement, here are some things that were whispered about me when I was talking like a whistle-blowing Rodarmor sound-alike (in my naive days when I thought a word to the wise was sufficient): ********* Q. WHAT'S THE DEAL WITH HOWIE? A1. He's having a kriya. A2. He's burning from the shakti. (Second-place) A3. His ego is giving him trouble. (Probably first-place, but I wouldn't know since they don't say things like this to your face.) A4. He had trouble making the transition from Baba to Gurumayi. (Pretty darn popular--maybe third or fourth place) A5. He's deluded. A6. The guru's really working on him. (This was definitely the most popular explanation.) A7. That's the perfect sadhana for him given his karma. A8. He's an "avadhut." ************* P. S. Cker, you are a great sport! Please keep posting! Subj: Response to ArtSMarie 1/2 Date: 96-05-21 14:06:19 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 2 Dear ArtSMarie, You say <<>> Please say what you think as best you can and it will receive full consideration. You may recall there was a period in which pro-SYDA comments were well in the majority; you may also recall that in those times I never let that stop me from saying what I thought. There is a pro-SYDA (supporter) folder available to you as well. <<>> Give me a context for this comment by answering this: Do you believe that Lis Harris's New Yorker article critiquing SYDA is a product of people's imaginations? <<>> What I see going on here is, people are giving their side of SYDA history--reporting the facts that are hidden from newcomers, and the experiences that people have had in SYDA. If newcomers--after hearing both sides of the story--decide to participate in SYDA anyway, fine. (For the sake of argument, I am putting aside the alleged illegal conduct of SYDA, which is not protected under the freedom of religion, and so is not "fine" regardless of how cult members interpret it.) ArtSMarie, It is not ethical to recruit cult members without telling them history, facts, and the kind of outcome they can expect from SYDA participation. <<<.....Why don't you go after Knute or Rush instead, they are causing real damage.>>> People who know are telling the inside story of SYDA. This is easy to understand. Those who know about short-weighting at the grocery store, as well as those who know about mass murder in China tell their stories. To tell what you know is a natural impulse. SEE PART 2 Subj: Response to ArtSMarie 2/2 Date: 96-05-21 14:07:41 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 OF 2 Dear ArtSMarie, You say <<>> I do not accept your version of happiness--I am just too familiar with SYDA's thought-system, and the bliss-ninny syndrome it induces. The following considers the allure of "cult-bliss," "groupthink joy": BEGIN QUOTED MATERIAL<<<. . . surrounded by exotic trappings, converts may rapidly absorb the cult's altered ways of thought and daily life. Before they realize what is happening, while their attention is diverted by contrived spiritual conflicts, repetitive rituals . . . the new cult members may slide into a state of mind in which they literally are no longer capable of thinking for themselves. In our view, this comprehensive assault strikes at the heart of consciousness, undermining the basic processes of thought and feeling essential to individual awareness and volition. Yet to zealous cult members this new state of mind often has another name: happiness. Their characteristic public pronouncement is that they have found true happiness, fulfillment on both personal and spiritual planes, in the simple life and labor of the cult. Their everyday state is a constant high, an emotional peak that maintains itself. When it falters, for whatever reason, cult members may simply intensify any number of techniques of meditation, chanting, or fervent prayer in which they have been studiously instructed, all guaranteed to return them to the state of bliss that is their reward for unquestioning devotion.>>> <<< . . . a person may reach a state of explosive overstimulation or emotional collapse. In the aftermath of this overwhelming new experience, he or she may enter a state of mind that is perceived as a renewal or rebirth and which may be, in fact, an ongoing physical and emotional high. . . . their problems solved because they have, in effect, stopped worrying about the things that were bothering them. At the present time, our language has no term for this new way of coping with the problems of life. We can describe the process as one of shutting off the mind, of not-thinking. In our view, this is the underlying appeal of countless cults, sects and therapies operating in America and worldwide, as well as the unstated attraction of many branches of born-again Christianity.>>>END QUOTED MATERIAL (Conway and Siegleman, 52-3). Subj: Response to ArtSMarie 2/2 Date: 96-05-21 14:07:41 EDT From: Howie Sm Subj: Some thoughts - 1 of 2 Date: 96-05-21 16:14:24 EDT From: Dissent222 Part 1 of 2 Dear AOL readers: I had a great conversation with some syda-ex folks yesterday, and there were some points we made that I wanted to try to express here in the forum. It had to do with relationship. In Syda, we found ourselves focusing on the guru (either the inner or the outer form, in whatever permutation), looking up with shining faces to a leader on a throne (or in our hearts, in the form of our own transcendent essence) -- and not really looking at each other. We kept looking up at her, and not at each other. We were taught "see God in each other", but many of us had a lot of trouble seeing each other to begin with, or feeling as though we ourselves were truly seen. For many of us before syda, relationships were difficult. Seeing God in each other seemed like a good solution to the painful problems of engaging in intimate relationships with people. But it was a non-solution, and I think it led to a sort of generalized automatic "knowing" of people based on assumptions about the status of their spirituality, rather than any real knowing. Real knowing of people is based on the empathetic, mutual ariticulation and communication of feelings. And it includes misunderstandings and working through those misunderstandings. It includes all kinds of emotions, not just "see the good, the highest." Yes, intimate, empathetic knowing includes even the capacity to hate and to still love. I can't remember any syda conversations that ever approached that level of complexity. Usually, it's more like: "have faith, forget your feelings, focus on the guru, do more seva." These kinds of bromides contain no real understanding and empathy - they are as absurd as those ridiculous labels Howie describes people pasting on him when he would attempt to point out evidence of abuses in syda. That kind of parroting of group jargon passes for intimacy in syda when in fact it is anything but. That kind of relating tends to drive one deeper and deeper into a solipsistic folie a deux with the imaginary omnipresent guru. It's tragic, in a way. The search for connection that led to the ashram resulted in deeper and deeper disconnectedness as we got more and more one-pointed on the guru's love, the guru's grace, the guru's heart, the guru's feet, the guru the guru the guru. For many who think of themselves as "outer circle", that's the m.o. There's this unfounded, magical belief that GM is watching and she KNOWS (when you are sleeping, she knows when you're awake - end song cue). She picks the perfect stuffy to give you on the darshan line and that proves that she KNEW exactly what you were thinking because the gift was EXACTLY a symbolic representation of some aspect of yourself you'd been praying about. Yeah, right. I DON'T THINK SO! The syda myth is that "gurumayi sees me, she knows my every thought and feeling, she's with me and in me." Fine, but where do YOU go when she inhabits you? YOU get split off and buried in some psychic storage bin, while the "ME PLUS MY INNER GURUMAYI" version of yourself is put on like a costume. IN the book SNAPPING, it's called sudden personality change. Steve Hassan calls it "self and cult-self." I am discovering that I like myself a lot more without my GM costume on. see Part 2 Subj: some thoughts - 2 of 2 Date: 96-05-21 16:14:52 EDT From: Dissent222 Part 2 of 2 Next rant. Now, There is a psychotherapy conference happening at the ashram this summer, the 4th annual conference. It's called Kashmir Shaivism in Professional Practice. Among the lead speakers are: Sw. Durgananada, the one who lied and refused to admit that she had acknowledged to the Boston devotees that Baba did have sex with many young girls. She'll be helping the participants to use "the witness consciousness, as we discover how to work with and dissolve deep tendencies with the fire of our own awareness." Perhaps she will also be teaching how to use witness consciousness to lie about and conceal sexual abuses in the ashram. Then there's Richard Gillette, one of the psychologists that breaks his professional code of ethics and violates the confidentiality of his clients by schmoozing with GM about them and listening to her make sarcastic comments about them while he joins in the laughter. Then there's the conference organizer, Sanand Winzeler, one of those guys who chased GM's brother around Kennedy Airport, threatening him and shouting, "we're going to get you." ( BTW, the other "clones" in the airport incident were Ganesh Irelan, Marcel Ringawa, Ganapati Buga, and Kaunteya Barnett.) One of the most astonishing parts of the conference is a section entitled: "How Can We Share Siddha Yoga With Clients" led by a panel of syda therapists. There is only one answer which is in accordance with the ethical codes of the psychotherapy (psychiatry, psychology, social work) profession(s): that is NOT to share SYDA at all. Nothing could be more unprofessional and more damaging to a pscychotherapy client than for their therapist to recruit them into a religion. And yet again and again, SYDA devotees who are therapists bring busloads of their clients to the ashram to meet GM. There are innumerable implications, all of them damaging to the client, to doing something so patently unprofessional as that. The most obvious is that, say the client is wandering around the internet and gets pointed to this discussion. They read every word, the open letters, the essay, the archives. And then they try to discuss it with their therapist, if they aren't too frightened of his potential response to broach the subject. And say this therapist decides to tell the patient that their doubts are projections, paranoia; maybe the therapist says "trust your own experience." DOES ANYONE SEE HOW DANGEROUS AND DESTRUCTIVE THIS IS BESIDES ME? And really, that's just the tip of the iceberg of this issue. More later - Dissent222 Subj: Re:some thoughts - 2 of 2 Date: 96-05-21 18:30:56 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, It was just mentioned that a SYDA program offering is titled: "HOW CAN WE SHARE SIDDHA YOGA WITH CLIENTS" Do they mean how can professional therapists discuss (share?!) Siddha Yoga with CLIENTS WHO APPROACH THEM IN THEIR PROFESSIONAL CAPACITY? For the love of Caesar! Talkin' bout zombie recruitment strategies! This is lower than a fishbelly in the Mariana trench! If this is true, these mere eight words--IN THEMSELVES--are unethical, and an outrage. --It is prima facie evidence of SYDA's lack of regard for any standards (such as PROFESSIONAL STANDARDS) except their own. --It is prima facie evidence of SYDA's automatic assumption that it can violate anyone's boundaries, that it can use the emotional vulnerabilites of those seeking help as an entree for self-serving spiritual-vampire adventures. Not to mention as an entree to pocketbooks and strong backs. --It is STRONG EVIDENCE that SYDA therapists are already accustomed to using their profession for zombie recruitment. The relish and magnitude with which the idea has been embraced indicates the momentum that is behind it, within the ranks of the SYDA therapist population. --The fact that those participating probably SINCERELY THINK THAT SIDDHA YOGA IS THE "WAY," and that they let this belief affect their professional conduct indicates that these therapists are MENTALLY DISTURBED as a result of their protracted brainwashing--it indicates yet again that: SIDDHA YOGA IS A DESTRUCTIVE CULT. Can one imagine a Jewish, Catholic, or Islamic therapist with this kind of unethical hubris? Dissent222, am I misinterpreting what you wrote? This course sounds so unethical and crazy that I can't believe even wacko SYDA would go public with a title like "HOW CAN WE SHARE SIDDHA YOGA WITH CLIENTS." The final kicker is: I bet the discipleship is so brainwashed that they won't even notice how grossly problematic this cockamamy concept is. Subj: SYDA Therapist Disorder Date: 96-05-21 21:23:01 EDT From: Dissent222 No, Howie, you haven't misinterpreted anything. The Flyer for this event lists the following: Saturday, July 20 9 - 12:30 Morning Prog.w/GM 12:30-2 Lunch 2-2:15 Welcome, overview and history 2:30 Psychotherapists Panel: "How Can We Share Siddha Yoga with Clients?" Case histories, discussion, small groups and sharing. And it goes on and on. So you see, the recruitment aspect of the program is given billing second only to Gurumayi. Pretty stunning, isn't it? Subj: bibliography Date: 96-05-21 21:28:14 EDT From: Dissent222 Just saw this on alt.yoga - a bibliography Subject: Re: Censorhip Attempt Fails From: jai@mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 20:09:25 GMT Message-ID: <1LioxQ9zBUQf089yn@mantra.com> MIND-CONTROL CULTS: A Bibliography The books listed below are recommended for anyone who wants to learn about mind-control cults: Cialdini, Robert B., Ph.D.; Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion Deikman, Arthur, M.D.; The Wrong Way Home: Uncovering the Patterns of Cult Behavior in American Society; Beacon Press, Boston, MA Winn, Denise; The Manipulated Mind Hoffer, Eric; The True Believer Hassan, Steve: Combatting Cult Mind Control Gallanter, Marc; Cults: Faith, Healing, and Coercion Langone, Michael, ed.; Recovery From Cults Ford, Wendy: Some Thoughts on Recovery; (recovering from a cult; written by a former cult member) Shepherding, C.A.N. Packet Conway, Flo and Jim Siegelman, Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change Conway & Siegelman, Study on Snapping; Science Digest, 1982 Patrick, Ted, with Tom Dulack; Let Our Children Go!; Clarke, Irwin & Co. Ltd., 1976 Sargant, William; Battle for the Mind Stoner, Carroll and Jo Anne Parke; All Gods Children: The Cult Experience - Salvation or Slavery?; Penguin Books Lifton, Robert J.; Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism; Lifton, Robert J.; The Future of Immortality and Other Essays for a Nuclear Age Bufe, Charles; Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure? Porterfield, Kay Marie; Blind Faith: Recognizing and Recovering from Dysfunctional Religious Groups Enroth, Ronald; Churches That Abuse Zimbardo, Philip and Ebbe B. Ebbesen; Influencing Attitudes and Changing Behavior; Addison-Wesley Publishing Co. Tobias, Madeleine Landau, and Janja Lalich; Captive Hearts, Captive Minds: Freedom and Recovery from Cults and Abusive Relationships; Hunter House; 1994. Ross, Joan and Michael Langone; Cults: What Parents Should Know; Carol Publishing Group (American Family Foundation) Rudin, Marcia R. (Ed.); Cults on Campus: Continuing Challenge; AFF & ICEP Dellinger, Robert W.; Cults and Kids: A Study of Coercion; The Boys Town Center Fromm, Erich; Escape from Freedom Kildoff & Javers; The Suicide Cult Jai Maharaj Subj: I like Astanga yoga, not SYDA Date: 96-05-22 09:52:03 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, I endorse the pursuit of religion, faith, and inner peace. What does SYDA yoga have to do with these things? Let's use astanga yoga as a guide (for context, please read the items in the Hinduism library on SYDA, including the New Yorker article listed in the bibliography): ************** 1. nonviolence (ahimsa)--guns, slashing of tires, sadistic verbal battering, severe beating of Abhayananda, threats of castration, etc. 2. truthfulness (satya)--"When I repeated Swami Chidvilasananda's denials about women complaining to her, Mary, the woman who says the guru seduced her in South Fallsburg said, 'Well that's an out-and-out-lie." (Rodarmor, 110). Denials of everything, coverups, lies, lies, lies, etc. 3. nonstealing (asteya)--dakshina money spent on abortions, jewels; Swiss bank accounts; making Nityananda sign BLANK PIECES OF PAPER (see Lis Harris's New Yorker Article); ghastly prices for everything; automatic monthly dakshina payment cards, etc. 4. chastity (brahmacharya)--Give me a break! I'll spare you even a summary of the SYDA sex story, since a summary would still run volumes! 5. nongrasping (aparigraha)--This, perhaps more than any of the others, DOES NOT fit SYDA. Nongrasping means that one has overcome the need to extend the radius of the ego and encroach upon the "life space" of others. More than even money, a psychotic need for total control and domination of disciples is behind the decisions of the gurus, in my opinion. 6, 7, 8. Dharana, dhyan, samadhi--First, the shrieking banshee tapes in the meditation halls make it impossible for anyone to concentrate! Sensory bombardment is used to disorient and destroy concentration and sense of identity, after which information control is used to brainwash. Overworked sevites scarcely do spiritual activities such as meditation, but, rather, run here and there in a state of shell-shock, hopelessly trying to do what their sadistic overlords are demanding of them. Long-term cult members complain of the inability to concentrate and of a loss in reading comprehension--among other problems. These problems can take years to recover from. Outer circle people are busied in auto-brainwashing seva and "spiritual-practices" regimens, in which they appear to be scatter-brained idiots, chickens with their heads cut off, bereft of will, void of an identity-center. GUIDED MEDITATION SCRIPTS turn SYDA's group meditations into high-pressure brainwashing rituals, in which the recognized techniques of hypnotherapy are directed at the sheep-like disciples who lap it up like unwitting suckers. ************ A 50 cent used pamphlet on Eastern spirituality, combined with sincere interest and some self-discipline, is a better "guru" than this mad organization. Let's cool it with the mixed messages, let's stop attributing to SYDA spiritual properties it does not have. Subj: Recruiting therapist stooges Date: 96-05-22 11:32:23 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear Dissent222, Thanks for the information about the <<<2:30 Psychotherapists Panel: "How Can We Share Siddha Yoga with Clients?">>> Case histories, discussion, small groups and sharing.>>> CASE HISTORIES! Case histories of "sharing Siddha Yoga with clients," case histories of zombie recruitment activities? Good grief! Freud is rolling in his grave. What happened to professional ethics! <<>>--Small group meetings are ideal settings in which "oldtimer" therapists with dirty hands can induct "green" therapists into their unethical society of zombie-recruiters. Small groups = peer pressure brainwashing. No doubt they'll pull out the "small group" brainwashing techniques that were perfected in activities such as "center leader" retraining. <<>>--"Sharing" of how to "share Siddha Yoga"? Sounds like more standard mind control. My guess is sharing here will function as a bonding ritual. Hearing "oldtimer" therapists talk comfortably about using their professional office for zombie recruitment will neutralize the impression of professional ethics that may be in place in the minds of "newcomer" therapists. MY HYPOTHESIS: This workshop is about recruiting therapists! About training therapists to become SYDA-stooges, who will use their professional identities as a cover! So, this seems to be about recruiting stooges--who will then go out and recruit zombies. What we need now are workshops on how to recruit "trainers" who will recruit stooges who will recruit zombies. Then a workshop on how to recruit "trainer trainers" who can recruit trainers who will recruit stooges who will recruit zombies. Then a workshop on how to recruit . . . Subj: "Therapy" as "yoga" Date: 96-05-22 19:26:28 EDT From: Cker Howie, did you not know that these "conferences" for the mental health professionals have been going on for years? I remember hearing about one in the early 80s, and I believe they have been offered fairly regularly to such practitioners. They are NOT ordinarily listed in the regular summer brochures. A NYC psychologist and SY meditation teacher has offered scholarly presentations to the professional community on "spirituality and meditation" and a large number of his clients are now in SY. He would be a likely candidate for this summer's panel. The *first* time I *ever* saw a picture of Gurumayi (of her at the 1982 Patabhishek - successor installation) was in a *therapeutic* setting with this therapist. He (showing me the wallet-sized photo): "Isn't she the most beautiful creature you've ever seen?!" Me: "Uh, she's ... BALD!" When I later began participating in SY, I received very specific strokes from him about how open and loving and welcoming I was becoming. (Image: Bliss Bunny distributing sweetness and light). When he found out I had been attending satsang, his response was, "Ah, I *knew* something was different!" I felt the thrill of being recognized by my therapist as someone who was becoming a healthier, more loving person - and all because of my involvement in SY, his chosen path. This therapist, prior to his involvement in SY, was scrupulous in denying clients access to information about his personal life. His professional distance eroded gradually. Early on, if a comment arose during a conversation at the ashram which even bordered on a "therapy issue," he would quickly absent himself. When it happened between us one time, I was initially offended, but then I realized (correctly, I might add) that it was inappropriate for me to converse with him at the ashram (even as a "samskara") some concern on which he and I had worked together. As time went on, this therapist began to engage in some personal activities with the community of client-yogis, and a SY "context" developed in my approach to my work with him. I thought this was OK because this appeared to me to be the most fortuitous marriage, combining all my "inner work" under a mantle of grace. I'm sure I'm not alone among his clients in coming to the conclusion that I would win his approval, be considered an "advanced," if I presented my problems, interpreted my experiences, and reached resolutions ("breakthroughs") within that context. In order to win and keep approval, I began to hide things about myself from my therapist and others in SY that were, to say the least, "inconsistent" with the teachings, including my doubts about SY. After all, aren't most issues that arise in therapy mere products of negative thinking or wrong understanding? Psychological well-being took a back seat to "enlightenment" as the goal of therapy. This defeated the purpose of therapy *and* yoga, but how could it *not* happen when a therapist allows his and his client's personal stake in a corrupt cult to become a factor in a therapeutic relationship? (continued) Subj: "Therapy" as "yoga" 2/2 Date: 96-05-22 19:27:45 EDT From: Cker It *is* the client's responsibility to be honest in a bona fide therapeutic relationship. It is the therapist's responsibility to maintain professional distance. I'll grant that neither of us met our responsibilities in this situation. But both considerations, and integrity itself, become secondary when both the client and the therapist are members of a cult which has at its core a conspiracy of silence, a "big lie." Both my therapist and I, heavily invested in SY, agreed by our complicity and lack of honest inquiry to respect the code out of loyalty to the master. My therapist used to be a master at pointing out when and with whom I was being manipulative, but he was unable to see it within the context of SY. I dare say there are few more effective disguises that can be assumed by a client to protect his neuroses than cult-think that the client knows he shares with the therapist. It happened, in my case at least, that the demonstration of improvements in "understanding," rather than the resolution of psychological issues, became the measure of progress in my "therapy." As I learned the jargon of the spiritual path, it became easier and easier to manipulate the process. In fact, it was a new version of the "performance" game I'd been playing all my life. I had found a shortcut around real issues that my previously very discerning therapist could not detect. People (at least in SY) thought I was a very nice person to be around. And I was - for them. *Living* with me, now *that* was (and is, I'll admit!) a different story. The contrast between my "yogi" self (reserved mostly for SY events) and my "bhogi" self (the side not as guarded about my flaws, which also swears when angry and includes meat in the definition of "prasad") became painfully obvious even to me. I spent tremendous energy, and became irritable, anxious, and guilt-ridden, trying to maintain this facade. My family was painfully good at pointing out my inconsistencies. One time, I explained to my seven-year-old that we had to clean his bedroom because the Mandali was coming and this person, who would take over his room for the duration (thereby infusing the very coils of his mattress with shakti) was "special." Without hesitation, he replied, "But, I'm special too." To this day, his remark pains me. Talk about "duality"! "Exit counseling"? Fagetabotit. If you leave the cult you share with your therapist-father, you lose him *and* your guru-mother, guru-grandfather, guru-great-grandfather, and all your guru-sisters, -brothers, -cousins, and -aunts and -uncles, Death might seem preferable, and apparently might be at least threatened if your leaving is enough of an embarrassment, if you consider the experience of Michael Dinga as described to Lis Harris. I'll wager that "Maintaining the Illusion of Professional Distance," euphemistically titled of course, will be a major topic at the conference this summer. Forgive me for this gut-spilling, but when I contemplate the issues raised in this forum, I find that the most effective way for me to endorse the truth is to relate how it happened to me. Subj: therapy - NOT Date: 96-05-23 03:47:13 EDT From: Dissent222 Dear CKer - Your account of therapy with a syda recruiter is pretty chilling. The old fashioned phrase is "contamination" of the therapeutic relationship, which is apt here, I think. I imagine this therapist you mention subtly pushing syda like a drug-pusher. "here take this, you'll feel better - take some more - more - ahh! now you're hooked" And the therapist office becomes an opium den. Of course, therapists who recruit lots of dakshina-forking-out clients get brownie points - they might even get to speak publicly at a syda conference about their success story. "How I Manipulated and Subtly Controlled My Clients With a Covert System of Rewards and Punishments Based on Their Professed Devotion To My Guru - And How Doing So Brought Me Special Attention From the Guru, Further Reinforcing My Narcissism". They left that off the conference brochure, but it still reads loud and clear. I hope someone reading this goes incognito to the therapist conference this summer - July 20-21 - and reports back. Because I bet GM's talk to introduce the conference will follow the typical pattern of all her recruitment and maintenance talks: icky sweet seductive stuff to start; then bash everyone present by referring to how inadequate they are and how badly they do their lives; then suggest how to solve that problem - by giving much much more to the guru, including giving her more recruits. When a therapist is so seduced and duped and manipulated himself, by the syda rewards and punishments system, what can s/he really be offering her/his clients? Subj: Cker's therapy Date: 96-05-23 08:45:23 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Cker wrote, << In order to win and keep approval, I began to hide things about myself from my therapist and others in SY that were, to say the least, "inconsistent" with the teachings, including my doubts about SY. >> In this situation, who was providing therapy for whose anxiety? Clearly, your behavior was a form of therapy for your therapist's anxiety which he had transformed, syda-style, into denial. In an implicit way he must have let you know that he needed you to help him, while you paid him to participate in that relationship. Did you ever wonder who needed therapy more, you or your therapist? His psychic neediness led him to the magic kingdom before he recruited you, and apparently he remains lost within it after you've left. You never required falseness from him, while he clearly required it of you. You came to him with your perceived need for therapy but you were and are, clearly, the more real person. You are much farther along the road of the *real* sadhana than he is. I think recognizing that will lead to more human dignity than anything he gave you. Too bad you can't send him a bill for your therapeutic services. Fibonacci Subj: SYDA Therapy Date: 96-05-24 07:26:24 EDT From: BVena Just a note about my ex SYDA therapist. Oddly, a dreadful illness could be saving people from an abhorrent nightmare. He tells his HIV positive clients "The ashram is not for sick people." He is also the person GM sends "New" people to if they ask questions about being gay in the darshan line. I can't imagine that there would be a problem here, could you? Think about someone you view as God sending you away because you are unclean. This is consistent with the general lunacy, but ethical? OOPS, I mentioned ethics and UberGuruMayi in the same post. Any ACT UP members lurking out there? Subj: more therapy 1 of 2 Date: 96-05-24 08:04:39 EDT From: Dissent222 Dear CKer - I'm still mind-blown by your description of the unethical, unprofessional practices of the NY syda-devotee therapist you described in your 2-part post. At least he isn't the NY syda-therapist who also invites folks to her channeling sessions, where her 19th century English lady personality, by some strange coincidence, speaks in Gurumayi quotations. The fact that this therapist was a wannabe actress years ago might account for her "Importance of Being Earnest" stage mannerisms. You've made so many very important points, I'd like to comment on a few: >" When I later began participating in SY, I received very specific strokes from him about how open and loving and welcoming I was becoming. (Image: Bliss Bunny distributing sweetness and light). When he found out I had been attending satsang, his response was, "Ah, I *knew* something was different!" I felt the thrill of being recognized by my therapist as someone who was becoming a healthier, more loving person - and all because of my involvement in SY, his chosen path."< So the therapist, who is acting as a procurer for his guru, abuses his power over his clients by rewarding them for their compliance and accomodation. In other words, by rewarding their adoption of a false self and encouraging the sequestering of their true self. In this way, the syda-therapist fulfills his mission to recruit more devotees and enhances his status as a favored person in the ashram, who gets strokes from the guru. That is, if the clients he recruits are attractive middle-class types with some money to spend, or else the willingness to do plenty of slayva. WOW. Isn't that precisely why so many seek therapy - because they had no choice as children but to learn to comply and accomodate, and had to hide their true self in the process? But in your scenario, as you struggle to find and express your true self, you run up against a false self therapist who trains you, once again, to hide the true self and display the false, accomodating self - as Fibs put it, to meet the therapist's requirements. What a sad, sad mess. >"In order to win and keep approval, I began to hide things about myself from my therapist and others in SY that were, to say the least, "inconsistent" with the teachings, including my doubts about SY. After all, aren't most issues that arise in therapy mere products of negative thinking or wrong understanding? Psychological well-being took a back seat to "enlightenment" as the goal of therapy. "< If a therapist encourages clients to think that the issues that arise in therapy are mere products of negative thinking or wrong understanding, he is not a therapist, he is a moralizer, a teacher, and a person who has not dared to face himself in a real or full way. He might as well just be saying, "oh that's hogwash, get over it." Or "don't think about that today - think about that tomorrow - after you've given more dakshina and done more slayva. After all, tomorrow is another day." see part 2 Subj: more therapy 2 of 2 Date: 96-05-24 08:05:29 EDT From: Dissent222 part 2 Issues that arise in therapy should be carefully explored and elaborated and permitted to emerge from hiding. The meaning of the issue, what function it has served, why it has been needed, how it came to be established - this is what the therapist slowly and empathically helps illuminate. The therapist should not be speaking from a place of higher power and authority (that is not what his training confers), not be offering rewards and punishments for compliance, not making moralistic judgments by dismissing issues with the slogan "wrong understanding". As obvious as this may be, it's just a sad fact of life that there are many incompetent therapists who do exactly these things and make a bundle. The issue here is relationship: the syda therapist, trained to keep eyes strained upward at all times, gazing up at the guru, is not looking at his client. The client, like all of us who come to therapy, wants to try to understand and heal and develop the ability to be in fuller, truer relationship to self and others. Getting trained to dismiss issues as "wrong understanding", and to mask the pain of isolation and aloneness by focusing instead on looking up at the guru, is a tragic, cruel distortion and manipulation of the therapeutic process. ">My therapist used to be a master at pointing out when and with whom I was being manipulative, but he was unable to see it within the context of SY. I dare say there are few more effective disguises that can be assumed by a client to protect his neuroses than cult-think that the client knows he shares with the therapist."< How manipulative this therapist is. Pointing out your manipulativeness while steadily manipulating you to fulfill his needs, allay his anxiety, give him what he wants - the feeling that he's a good therapist with the power to win recruits and influence people. Whatever talent and motive this therapist may have had has become badly distorted by the syda game. Forgive me if I'm belaboring all this, but CKer, your posts really struck a nerve. Being a therapist is hard work, it means inviting, tolerating and containing intense feeling. If a therapist becomes frightened and anxious about his own feelings that are triggered by working with clients, he might seek a short-cut to numbness - and many therapists drink or do drugs or have sex with clients as part of their avoidance and control routines. And others do SYDA with their clients. As syda devotees, a part of us always knew that by gazing up at the guru, we were denigrating and isolating ourselves - and were caught in a trap. The "bliss of devotion to the guru" is a mask - worn by therapists, swamis, darshan panel members, center leaders, ashram managers - - that is worn to hide one's fear, numbness, emptiness and feeling of being trapped. A therapist wearing the SYDA mask will be the blind leading the blind. Subj: Classic example of SYDAspeak Date: 96-05-25 14:15:11 EDT From: HowieSmJr Dear AOL readers, For your convenience, I am reposting a Hinduism folder response to Charlie47 here. It illustrates how the SYDA prohibition on the appearance of "negativity" in speech actually fosters sneaky, backhanded speech habits--and, by transitivity, a sneaky, backhanded way of thinking. I know this is something most of us know too well and can easily recognize, but I thought I'd still post this because it is indeed a sterling example. Subj: Re:Living in a fantasy world Date: 96-05-25 14:06:02 EDT From: HowieSmJr Dear Charlie47, you say <<>> Charlie, do you really wonder? This is clearly disingenuous, like so many of your messages. Isn't this what you are trying to say: --"I know that I live in a fantasy world, whereas "certain other people" (one or more SYDA critics perhaps?) do not know that they live in a fantasy world." Are we to presume, then, that your subtext is, "others do not understand 'reality' as well as I do, and my pregnant, rhetorical question (above) is my spiritual way of 'teaching' them, of putting them in their place, of rebutting them"? Charlie, please just say what you mean, and drop the disingenuous (sneaky) tone, the rhetorical questions, and the backhanded critiques masquerading as detached proclamations of personal philosophy. You have an audience in mind--including critics--when you write. Fine. Admit it, and move ahead. Direct speech is a form of honesty--in my opinion. Subj: The draining of Lake Nit. Date: 96-05-25 20:37:40 EDT From: HowieSmJr WARNING: SYDA HUMOR BELOW--YOU MAY LOSE YOUR SHAKTI IF YOU READ BEYOND THIS POINT Dear AOL readers, Some have wondered if I, HowieSmJr, am actually an AUTHORIZED channel for the spirit of HowieSm. To dispel all doubts, and to make believers of you all, here is an AUTHORIZED joke channeled from HowieSm (who is still on the other side, in the land of the TOSsed). Q. Why did ZsaZsaMayi (not Gabor) order Lake Nityananda to be drained, (despite the environmental consequences)? A. She tried to walk on water, failed (splash, glub. . .glub. . . ), and THEN GOT P---ED OFF. Subj: Re:The draining of Lake Nit. Date: 96-05-25 21:09:37 EDT From: BVena LOLOLOLOL.....".OOOOHHH NOOOOOOO my shakti is going. What a world what a world!."...I melt under witch hat. Subj: Spring 1996 Gnosis Magazine Date: 96-05-26 12:24:31 EDT From: Agni123 I have been enjoying the posts. Thank you every one. Thanks also for the recommendation to read the article “Face to Face: Confronting the Guru-Disciple Relationship” by Ihla F. Nation in the spring 1996 issue of Gnosis magazine. This article contains a lot of helpful information and adds to the list of publications which present SYDA in ways that must be considered by any serious seeker. It includes a useful subsection on “choosing a teacher” from the book “Spiritual Choices: The Problems of Recognizing Paths to Inner Transformation” by Anthony, Ecker and Wilber, (eds), published by Paragon House, 1987. I have not read this book but intend to. I just want to quote here a quotation from the Dalai Lama from the Face to Face article. He has said, “I recommend never adopting the attitude toward one’s spiritual teacher of seeing his or her every action as divine or noble. This may seem a little bit bold, but if one has a teacher who is not qualified, who is engaging in unsuitable or wrong behavior, then it is appropriate for the student to criticize that behavior.” I found it very helpful to read this quotation as it supported what I have done concerning the immoral SYDA gurus. The article discusses devastated, former SYDA disciples some of whom left SYDA when Muktananda’s sex life came into the open and quotes Stan Trout, one of Muktananda’s former swamis, as saying “there was no recourse but to leave, for the guru was the sole appeal.” The article continues “the Dalai Lama explains such situations by saying that while ‘part of the blame lies with the student, because too much obedience, devotion, and blind acceptance spoils a teacher, part also lies with the spiritual master because he lacks the integrity to be immune to that kind of vulnerability.’ ”. I agree with the Dalai Lama and add that one cannot of course “blame” students who are youngsters. I refer here to the many children and adolescents who have been raised by their parents or guardians to place total trust in the guru. Certainly one must realize the personal responsibility that one bears in recommending a guru to any one, adult or pre-adult. Unfortunately I have learned this the hard way because I have in the past recommended SYDA to friends some of whom remain deeply embroiled in it. I feel this is a responsibility that I must “own” and I do. This is only part of the article’s most interesting contents and I recommend it. It would be nice to have in one place a list of the many various readings that have been recommended on this board. I have followed with great interest and concern the information being revealed about SYDA and therapists. As all of us who have been in SYDA know a very high percentage are “therapists”. I have not doubt that many of them refer their clients to SYDA and I find this most disturbing. I know other health professionals who do the same thing. It is so tragic to see vulnerable people being fed into an abusive system. Best wishes to all’ Agni Subj: Re:Spring 1996 Gnosis Magazine Date: 96-05-26 18:50:37 EDT From: HowieSmJr Dear AOL readers, I also just read the Gnosis article on the pitfalls of guru-disciple relationships in the U.S.A. The article points out that it is psychologically unhealthy to have an inaccessible guru whom you scarcely know, and have no chance of ever really knowing. The author uses SYDA's "outer circle" as an example. To believe that some remote stranger (the guru) is the agency behind significant changes in your life, and behind your "inner guru" experiences, is not good--argues the author of the article. The author notes that, for SYDA, the emphasis on the "inner guru" goes hand in hand with the need to manage large numbers of disciples. The author also briefly notes that SYDA's system fosters unhealthy magical thinking, regarding disciples' imagined spiritual connectedness to remote personages. In short, the author recognizes that outer circle SYDA disciples--not just the residential ashramites--are in trouble. Hrdaya, thanks for the recommendation. Subj: Its been a hard week Date: 96-05-27 02:18:54 EDT From: Violet1884 This past week I have been having what in my SYDA days I would of called a “kriya” - however, reality has taken a hold again! I have been very sad and have being going through what I can only understand as part of the grief reaction to “losing my religion”. I know enough about grief to know that its symptoms come in waves and that sometimes the reality of what is happening is clouded with disbelief and delusion. I have been haunted with thoughts that perhaps things are not as bad as I think they are and that perhaps I am “making a mistake” in rejecting this path in my life. Fortunately I have had a few friends to talk with and I have enough intellectual ability myself to see this for what it is. However, it has been painful. I miss the old days of having a “safety net” securely in place. Of having ready explanations for everything and having a buffer against every hurt. This is what I have felt - and yet the truth is that those “old days” were not so great. As I have already shared on this board, I was severely depressed while I was heavily involved in SYDA - a depression that has entirely lifted since I have left SYDA. I experienced a great deal of passive aggression directed toward me and observed it directed toward others. I was continually aware of the dishonesty in the communication around me. I was also aware of a lot of the unethical things that happened in SYDA that later came out in the New Yorker article. SYDA is not a healthy place for me to be and nor has it been a healthy place for many others. Howie, you seem to be currently making a distinction between the experiences of the “inner circle” and those of the “outer circle”. I suppose I would be someone who was somewhere in between those groups. I did not live in the ashram permanently however, I went to see the guru a lot and was known personally by her. I was assigned “close” seva when I was at the ashram and at one point was on the SC list. I was never treated badly overtly but I was certainly exposed to the mind control that is such a basic part of the system. In some ways I think this kind of abuse could be harder to deal with because there is nothing to grab a hold of. Passive aggression is SO slippery. So during times such as I experienced last week, one wonders if one is making it all up! Does all this make any sense to anyone else? Thanks for being here. Violet Subj: Outer circle brainwashing 1/2 Date: 96-05-27 09:12:34 EDT From: HowieSmJr PART 1 OF 2 Dear Violet, You say a lot of great things in your last message. Thanks so much for finding the words, and for your incredible openness. I hear you loud and clear, on every point! You say <<>> That's true--I've been doing it because I've noticed that SYDA apologists do it. I'm doing it because I'm trying to address one of their main rationalizations, specifically that: ******** --COMMON APOLOGIST POSITION "SYDA spirituality is authentic and good for OUTER circle people; INNER circle people have trouble because of the organizational structure; after all organizations are made of flawed people. Hence the testimony of inner circle people is not relevant to outer circle people. (*Optional secondary rationalization: inner circle people have BIG EGOS and that is why they fell." ******** People have been using this argument to discredit Dissent and Shridevi, among others. I think this argument is an insulting rationalization that trivializes the very real experience of a large population of SYDA laborers, and it reeks of patronizing spirituality. Violet, I'm with you, actually, and don't make much of the "outer/inner disciple" distinction. The only reason I make the distinction is to debunk it. You say in your message exactly why I think the distinction is misleading: it is misleading because the brainwashing of outer circle people is no less crazy-making than the overt abuse of inner circle people. The difference is (as you mention), outer circle manipulation is more subtle, harder to put one's finger on, and VERY DIFFICULT TO DISCUSS with zombies who don't want to see it. Still, outer circle people's freedom of spiritual, emotional, and intellectual movement is tampered with by SYDA mind control--in sometimes devastating ways. What I liked about the Gnosis is article is they mentioned the "outer circle" issue. The author makes it clear that though SYDA APPEARS more benign--since there are many nonresidential members--it is NOT BENIGN. The author recognized that people think they are safe if they are nonresidential SYDAites. They are wrong. SEE PART 2 Subj: Outer circle brainwashing 2/2 Date: 96-05-27 09:13:42 EDT From: HowieSmJr PART 2 Dear AOL readers, I know what Violet means about having a bad week. I'm worried about the SYDA disciples who are going to wake up one day and realize they had a BAD LIFE--that their circuits have been blocked for years in a SYDA-psychosis feedback loop. When SYDA folk realize they've been zombified for big chunks of their lives, it's crash-and-burn time. Some, upon sensing impending disaster, try to avoid the horror by REDOUBLING their auto-brainwashing rituals! They decide to dig their heels in and stick with SYDA thinking habits with ever greater tenacity. Unfortunately, turning up the juice on the denial/rationalization circuits increases the spiritual/mental/emotional damage one suffers, and makes it even harder to break loose. It is a feedback loop. Denial and rationalization only postpone the inevitable. For people who stubbornly refuse to break free against all instinct and evidence, the feedback loop reaches a kind of maximum. What results is a psychotic solipsism: EXAMPLES FROM CHARLIE <<>> By the way, I like to discuss Charlie's posts, not to single him out, but because he provides the ultimate negative example of what happens to someone's mind if they do not break the "feedback loop" SYDA initiates. He embodies the logical conclusion of SYDA membership. I should say--Charlie has attained the goal. Who wants to be next? Breaking away from SYDA is painful, no doubt. Still, it's infinitely better to live our own truths, and worship God directly without intermediaries, than to wallow till death in a pile of superficially pleasurable, gussied up bullTOS. Subj: Re:Its been a hard week Date: 96-05-27 14:11:57 EDT From: JJanetH2 Violet, it's nice to hear someone who can put their thoughts into words so clearly especially when what we're feeling is so difficult to characterize. The big lie depends on everyone pretending there's nothing wrong. If you don't pretend then they treat you like there is something wrong with you. By the way, I know just what you mean about the passive-aggressive stuff. Your posts are very much appreciated. Subj: The Experience of Shaktipat Date: 96-05-27 18:14:30 EDT From: JungleShe I've had the same emotional struggle with what Gurumayi has said and done as anybody. I'm NOT comfortable with her ignorance. But the essence of Siddha Yoga is the experience, not the doctrines or the personality of its leaders. Everytime a mystical path becomes a religion, it begins to get corrupt. I know that the jolts of shakti that I got from Muktananda, and so many powerful inner jolts of unfolding directional shakti, transformed me from one sick young gal, to a happily insane mystic that sees the perfect pattern of the unfoldment as having so much internal coherence, that I can't doubt that SOMETHING happened that damn sure felt like what the Hindu scriptures describe as all the effects, results, and symptoms of Shaktipat. With all my doubts, and believe me, no body is an over-analytical as I have been (Was that a real experience, was that indigestion, wish fulfillment, etc.), there have been "too many coincidences to be coincidental". I've been watching the process for 25 years now, and it keeps getting MORE amazing. Yet I too, was crushed at Gurumayi's support of the sexual harrassment. The personality self is not the greater self...Could she have let the Shakti slip? Could Baba have slipped? Perhaps so. I dunno. I'm just in it for the bliss, and the meditation, chanting and practices WORK....and the miracles in my life continue to unfoldl Whaddya gonna do? Subj: Re:Its been a hard week Date: 96-05-27 18:48:06 EDT From: Cker Dear Violet, You said, >> I experienced a great deal of passive aggression directed toward me and observed it directed toward others. I was continually aware of the dishonesty in the communication around me.... SYDA is not a healthy place for me to be and nor has it been a healthy place for many others.<< This was my experience also. There was a constant tension between SY/nonSY, things I wanted to do with my family, my friends, my time, and my money. This came out in arguments between me and my husband before every single ashram trip and a feeling of having to reintegrate and myself into, and ingratiate myself with, the family on returning home to convince them that, yes, they were still really important to me. I also hid the amount of money I spent on SY materials and courses. This meant sneaking things I'd purchased into the house, hiding the receipts, trying to seamlessly blend books and pictures and tapes and CDs into my collection without notice. I can spend money on all kinds of nonSY stuff without batting an eye or hiding it. What dishonesty, within myself as well as with others! My best friend had a block, conscious or not, about the fact that one night of the week was reserved for satsang, always proposing activities for that night, or asking me if I'd seen this or that on TV. This was a source of anxiety that completely lifted the moment I made the decision to leave SY. I was not "inner circle." I was very definitely "outer circle," but people knew me at the ashram as a trustworthy and hardworking sevite from the "hinterland." The mind control things definitely worked on me as well as if I had been "inner circle." Sifting through my belongings and purging SY influence demonstrated the pervasiveness of SY influence in my life. One person, told that I was leaving SY, put in a "first dibs" bid for my SY collection of books, tapes, CDs, videos (including some I'd agreed in writing not to transfer to others for any purpose - you all remember the agreement that purchasers had to sign which is no longer used?), puja cloths, jewelry, complete Darshan collection, old Siddha Path magazines (dating from 1981 - you can imagine the contraband contained therein!), and nearly 14 years of the SY Correspondence Course. When I reacted as if this must be a joke, this person assured me that it was a serious offer. I did not, at first, consider selling this stuff. I did not want to encourage delusion or expose the unitiated to something I had come to understand as destructive. However, I began to assemble my SY stuff so I could "clear the decks" for things I was interested in, things that I had thought were expressions of disloyalty or lack of commitment. I thought I'd give it away but felt this would invite discussion my reasons for leaving and precipitate a debate which I wanted to avoid. I thought I'd donate it to the local Center but realized that they would probably think it was "tainted." What influence my ultimate decision was that, using original prices, I calculated that the entire collection had cost me over $6500.00! My spouse was shocked by the New Yorker revelations - and then realized that I had continued spending money on SY courses and materials even after it had been published. We decided that, since I had an offer from someone who knew of the accusations and chose to remain in SY, I should explore the possibility of selling to recoup our loss. This person offered me $800.00 for the entire lot - 12 cents on the dollar. You know what? I took it. What surprised me, as I left the stuff assembled in a pile for more than a week before I got rid of it, is that there is no "hole" in my home where SY used to be. It's filled with life as it is, as I deal with it every day. And, remarkably, I'm discovering a wealth of love and support among those that I'm closest to, and a calm within myself born of the liberation from defensiveness, frustration, conflict, and fear. (Continued) Subj: Re:Its been a hard week Date: 96-05-27 18:49:01 EDT From: Cker I've also begun doing some reading that I would not have had time for, most notably Ken Wilber's newest book, entitled "A Brief History of Everything." One of the things that I've begun to consider for the first time in my life is that my spiritual interests do not need a context of organized religion. This is, in part, how I'm dealing with "getting over" SY. I struggled with this decision to leave for months. I knew I was being dishonest with myself and others each day I spent as a putative SYogi. The conflict inside me was unbearable. As Howie said, "...it's infinitely better to live our own truths, and worship God directly without intermediaries, than to wallow till death in a pile of superficially pleasurable, gussied up bullTOS." Amen! Subj: Re:Outer circle brainwashing Date: 96-05-27 18:50:58 EDT From: Cker Howie says, >>When SYDA folk realize they've been zombified for big chunks of their lives, it's crash-and-burn time. Some, upon sensing impending disaster, try to avoid the horror by REDOUBLING their auto-brainwashing rituals! They decide to dig their heels in and stick with SYDA thinking habits with ever greater tenacity. Unfortunately, turning up the juice on the denial/rationalization circuits increases the spiritual/mental/emotional damage one suffers, and makes it even harder to break loose. It is a feedback loop. Denial and rationalization only postpone the inevitable.<< Spending money apace on SY programs and material, purging my bookshelves of nonSY material that was "distracting" - these are some of the ways I "turned up the juice" to save myself from "fallen yogi" status. It only intensified the anxiety and guilt I felt. As I became more convinced of the existence of falsehoods at SY's core, I could no longer force myself to do seva, and finally gave it up. Experiencing how good I felt doing this convinced me that I needed to do even more to free myself from the lie. I had to make the break. Now on the other side, I can't tell you the relief I feel at being able to breathe truth again. Cker Subj: Re:The Experience of Shaktip Date: 96-05-27 19:07:38 EDT From: Cker JungleShe says >>...the essence of Siddha Yoga is the experience, not the doctrines or the personality of its leaders.... Yet I too, was crushed at Gurumayi's support of the sexual harrassment. The personality self is not the greater self...Could she have let the Shakti slip? Could Baba have slipped? Perhaps so. I dunno. I'm just in it for the bliss, and the meditation, chanting and practices WORK....and the miracles in my life continue to unfoldl Whaddya gonna do?<< This is "I take refuge in the INNER guru" denial. I was advised, and tried to ignore the advice, to test the guru against objective and observable standards of behavior consistent with the ancient scriptural teachings (or what I learned of them in SY), which includes, most notably, celibacy, nonviolence, and truth. What I could see of the guru's behavior is not all there is to that behavior, and I took refuge in that ignorance for a long time. But when I began to hear the allegations from credible sources, and virtual admissions from SYDA people, the test yielded bitter results that I could not wish away with the excuse of "inscrutability." "Slipping" into unrighteous is not on the menu for a being established in the state the gurus claim to have been established in. Baba said so himself! This is not to say that we did not experience something extraordinary in our meditations, while chanting, while honestly giving of ourselves. "Miracles" happen all the time. It's called life on a fragile planet in a hostile solar system careening through infinity and timelessness. Miracles happen to people everywhere, and I'm willing to bet that if JungleShe lived her life according to the ancient teachings called by any other name, those "miracles" would have occurred. Cker Subj: innie/outie Date: 96-05-27 19:48:04 EDT From: Dissent222 Dear AOL readers: I think the recent points about inner vs. outer circle impact in SYDA are really important. Because, as Violet says, the outer circle impact is more subtle, there is not so much concrete material for those in the outer circle to hold on to -- and it is easier to let self-doubt lead to a slide straight back into the mind control. People in the so-called outer circle will say again and again, "that's not my experience." And yet I think many of them, if they were confronted with video and audio coverage of some of the deviant acts of the SYDA gurus, would still say, "well, that's not my experience." I know for a fact that those who are assigned to handle people's questions about the New Yorker article, for example, have previously acknowledged Mutananda's sexual activities with young women and girls. Yet they will tell a person who asks them about that issue, "that's not my experience of Baba." This is the desperate rationale of people who live in fear, who have been made to feel terrified of telling the truth. On the other hand, inner circle people who witnessed abuse and deception, as Howie points out, are accused of lying, having a chip on their shoulder, having big egos, etc. So you don't have much success with those who can't hear, regardless of which circle you were in. I guess what is important to me is that a small group of us here on AOL are finding the courage to tell the truth, although we keep our identities protected, and wisely so. I for one am tremendoulsy grateful to hear what others who know what really goes on in syda have to say, because lord knows, we are not likely to get much support to talk about these issues from our syda yoga therapists, our syda friends, or from official syda spokespeople. In her famous message about "surrender and obedience", GM made it very clear that she loathed people in the ashram who had friends and who attended to human relationship at the expense of their unbroken focus on pleasing her. Wanna read the quote? Here it is: 'Many people form friendships, cliques in the ashram. When they form friendships, they go to their friends for help instead of the Guru. When they talk among themselves they talk about their friends, not about the Guru. Then when they have a problem they have to take drugs." EXCUSE ME???????? Having friends and significant others that I can be honest with is what has saved my life from the syda mess I was in. GM and her insane, hateful messages to the devotees she so desperately needs to dominate and exploit, can go jump in her environmentally incorrect lake. Subj: magical literalism 1/2 Date: 96-05-27 20:07:21 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Referring to a post of mine, Charlie 47 wrote in the devotees folder: << I recently noticed that someone pointed out that I live in a fantasy world. I wonder if the difference between you and me is that I know I live in a fantasy world. >> No, I don't think so. I think the difference is that I try to recognize what my fantasies are and distinguish them from what is real. Everybody has fantasies. Everybody indulges in some magical thinking. It's part of being human. I think the goals are to recognize what is fantasy and what is not, and to see more deeply into the reality of the world. Some people pretend that their fantasies are real. Others pretend that all of reality is an illusion (or a "fantasy", as Charlie says). Both of these positions spring from denial. Real wisdom doesn't confuse what is real with what is fantasy, as Charlie suggests. There is an old story of a disciple who stood in the path of a charging elephant, because he had been taught that all is unreal and wanted to test his faith. His guru, who was watching, ran over and pulled him out of the way. He then told the disciple that he misunderstood the teaching. It's not that the charging elephant is unreal. It's that there's a deeper reality in this world that we do not appreciate if we only see charging elephants and the like. Like the disciple in the elephant story, Charlie inhabits a world of magical literalism, a kind of pop neo-hindu funadmentalism. At least the disciple was being honest about it -- he was willing to live by what he believed. Modern day pop neo-hindu fundamentalists (like Charlie) talk the talk but they don't walk the walk. In the name of wisdom they practice self deception. The problem with syda style magical literalism is that it's not honest. Charging elephants, income tax, ethical behavior, abuse -- all these things are real. They are not fantasy, and the pop hindu teachers who serve us platefulls of magical literalism know it. They put lots of energy into the world -- expanding their empires, silencing critics, spying on devotees, etc. These are not the behaviors of people who believe that the world is a fantasy or unreal, as Charlie pretends. The honest thing to do would be to teach that this world is real, *and* to teach that there is a reality beneath the surface appearance. Many people with good experiences and good understanding have left syda. They left because they recognized that hiding behind the magical literalism of pop hindu teachings amounts to dishonesty and denial, not deep vision and spiritual attainment. They left because they rejected the dogmatism, and the unethical use of that dogma to control, deceive, and abuse. ( See part 2 ) Subj: magical literalism 2/2 Date: 96-05-27 20:08:18 EDT From: Fibonacci8 In our western tradition there have been many great ones who saw beyond the surface reality. Einstein had that kind of vision as much as anyone ever did, and yet he found no need to deny the reality which we experience at the surface. I think this is the real way to "see beyond illusion" -- i.e. to see the deeper reality while being firmly grounded in the common reality of the world. Or how about Spinoza, Einstein's spiritual twin, who saw God everywhere in the harmony of all being. Spinoza found no need to deny the reality of the world. He found no need to dismiss ethics as some kind of fantasy, like Charlie is so willing to do. Or how about Moses who put ethics at the foundation of the new religion he built. Jesus did the same when he recast that religion in a new mold. Those towering human beings weren't lacking in spiritual understanding. They just didn't pretend the world is unreal, that ethics is some kind of fantasy, a confusion of the unenlightened. Is Charlie privy to wisdom that eluded Moses and Jesus? Does he see more deeply than Einsein and Spinoza? I think not. Charlie's magical literalism just doesn't fly. Subj: Re:A positive experience Date: 96-05-27 23:01:32 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Charlie 47 wrote: << Why is there a need to attack anyone that has had a positive experience of Siddha Yoga. >> Thanks for your reply. I think you may have missed the point, so I will spell it out. The point is not to "attack anyone that has had a positive experience of Siddha Yoga". Those of us who post here all had some positive experiences of SY. Then something went terribly wrong. And we were encouraged to persist in our SY involvement far too long because of the atmosphere of dishonesty and fear in Syda. Now that we have left we are trying to understand what happened to us, why it happened, and to grow from here. One reason things went so wrong in Syda was because of the way ancient teachings were distorted for the purposes of deceit, control, and abuse. Saying this is very different than saying, as you do, "I am fully aware that Siddha Yoga was a negative experience for many." That really misses the point. If hundreds of women were sexually abused, do you say, "Well some people had a negative experience"? The point is that the Syda gurus were routinely engaging in and condoning abuse, and covering it all up. Many of us who weren't physically raped were abused in other ways. Again, the point is that SY is a spiritual path which claims supreme human perfection of its leaders while, all along, they conducted manipulative and damaging activities. Deception, manipulation and abuse necessitate recovery. That is what this folder is about. I wrote my "magical literalism" post in response to your post in the Devotees folder. It wasn't meant to influence your thinking or to attack you personally. I was using your post as an example of the distortion of the ancient teachings that many of us are trying to understand and free ourselves from. I wanted to expose the way ancient teachings are used by unethical gurus to advance their worldly agendas. I also wanted to illustrate how fundamentalist or literal interpretations of those teachings enable people to hide from harsh truths. << This selective thinking will serve your anger but will hardly support you in moving on with your sadhana. >> I would encourage you to re-read the posts in this folder carefully. As I read these posts, I cannot help but be struck by how much sadhana is going on here. If sadhana can be measured by the progress people make in their inner growth, I can only conclude that much sadhana is going on here, and that it is bearing much fruit. One great thing that has happened here is that people have become free from the need to experience their personal growth in the conceptual framework and terminology of the corrupt spiritual school they have left. That is why we tend not to use words like "sadhana" in this folder. But growth is growth, and if you can't see it here, I think you might not be paying attention. Subj: Outer Circler Comes Out pt. 1 Date: 96-05-27 23:03:46 EDT From: Hrdaya2914 You remember how they used to say in SY that if you attend a chant and don't sing but sit there enjoying the vibe, you're "stealing the shakti"? Maybe there's some validity in that vis-a-vis these boards. I've been hanging out here since March, learning a lot and going through a lot, without contributing much. Perhaps it's time to be a little more generous with my own insights if they will help others. There must be many "outer circle" people lurking about wondering how all this relates to their experience, thinking they have not been hurt and deluded like those in the "inner circle" -- i.e. those nasties who we always hated in SY anyway, planted in our path by GM to test our sincerity. (I just heard that one again the other day from someone desperately trying to hang on, bee-leev it or not.) Well, I'm as outer circle as I come and I'm here to tell you that, innie or outie, SY has been my raison d'etre for many years. It may have only been an inner life, but it has been the foundation of my life. Violet, I was very moved by your last post. I too have felt like I am in mourning. I have been longing to draw the warm fuzzy blanket of denial over my head and go back to my beautiful, if deluded, dreams. With summer approaching, the attempt to break away gets even more difficult. The upcoming summer courses sound so sexy, as usual. The prospect of sweet darshan encounters, even "firey" ones, beckons seductively. The thought of never again savoring a cup of steamy Siddha coffee, still basking in the reverent afterglow of the Guru Gita, depresses me no end. In the past, I have -- as Howie noted that many folks do -- just gone deeper into the whole unhealthy mess to avoid listening to that other "inner voice" -- the nagging questions and doubts that would not let up from the first day I set foot in a SY center. Thanks to this forum and the testimony of so many people who have been so badly hurt, I can't stick my fingers in my ears and blot it all out with the mantra anymore. Subj: Outer Circle Comes Out pt. 2 Date: 96-05-27 23:17:44 EDT From: Hrdaya2914 As I may have mentioned here, leaving SY for me is a process; I am not "out." I have not yet severed all ties. I'm longing to go back to the ashram one last time to say goodbye to Gurumayi and to my favorite place in the world; I have not chucked the books and tapes, though I am slowly divesting myself of pictures and did stop my slayva. I have not figured out what to say to people about this, though I've discussed it with friends who were always "on the fringe;" there are so many more who are more involved. My family, never very supportive of me to begin with, doesn't even know yet -- I'm not ready to hear their "I told you so's." Practically everyone I love and socialize with, from good friends to healthcare practitioners and even some business associates, is a devotee. It's very complicated, and my deep, deep pain about leaving is somewhat paralyzing. As I said, I was never "inner circle," though I guess I could have been -- I always seemed instinctively to pull back from that kind of involvement which, with all the information inherent in it, made me uncomfortable. I did have some informal Center Leader training, went to SF an awful lot, etc. Even when I was at my most depressed and/or enraged during my stays in the ashram, it still always seemed like the best/safest place to be. I largely believed my own trumped-up experience talks and (sometimes heavily self-edited) journal entries, in which I tended to make Mt. Kailases out of molehills, Bhagavad Gitas out of darshan bops. Reading these boards and corresponding with many of you, I have been forced to realize that it would be unconscionable for me to remain connected to a group that resorts to illegal and immoral practices in order to maintain its mythology. I have had to admit to myself that I have suffered abuse from people in the organization, once or twice from GM herself, and at my own hand (mental self-flagellation)...and that it was not all "for my own good." But I'm not here to say "The whole thing was bad and evil." I did learn so much about myself, did learn to be more loving. There were so many "breakthroughs" if I may use that word, and I believe that whether or not they cam efrom inside me or from "GM's shakti" is irrelevant at this point. I was on a very self-destructive course before finding this first introduction to my spiritual nature, and I think in many ways it saved my life. There were valuable lessons for me in SY, even if the most priceless one of all is that I have to move on. My only real regret is that, in my selfish desire to "follow my bliss," I may have been abusive or untruthful to others. But even there, I am delighted to find that I've got this thing in my heart that the guru supposedly always has for all of us: compassion. I have felt so deeply upset for those of you who have shared your pain here. It is more because of that than because of any injustice done to me that I feel I can't stay in SY. See part. 3 Subj: Outer Circle Coming Out pt. 3 Date: 96-05-27 23:24:18 EDT From: Hrdaya2914 I realize now too how great (if misdirected) is my capacity to love, for I loved GM with all my heart. I still feel love for her despite everything, and compassion too, when I should perhaps be feeling pure, unmitigated rage. I don't really know her, I realize; and she may be laughing all the way to the bank...but she's been living in an abusive system all her life, and that's sad. For me it was a scant 9 years. Sometimes I hate this board for forcing me to face the music. BUt here I'll stay, lest I get drawn back by the siren song of "the Guru's love." I realize I am THISCLOSE to doing just that because I truly, truly want to. When SY was good, it was like an indescribably delicious cosmic orgasm. Like any addiction, it becomes the focus of one's existence. I'll have to find another reason to be on this earth, and frankly, I despair of finding it anytime soon. Pathetic, huh? Well, at least I'm aware of that. For 9 years -- bowing to empty chairs, emptying my pockets into a wealthy cult's coffers, thinking I had the greatest, most blessed life and karma as I gradually lost my sense of humor, my boundaries, my personal style, and my ability to think clearly -- I didn't have a clue as to how pathetic I was. Subj: Re:It's been a hard week Date: 96-05-28 00:42:13 EDT From: BVena Dear Vi You have made a very important discovery. The over all depression you experienced while in SY has lifted. You've had a bad week, sure. But at least you don't have to feel that some maniacal Shiva shill has anything to do with it. There is no one to propitiate, no one to please before you can feel better. Eventually the rapid cycle highs and lows of SY will give way to, for lack of a better word, "normal" thinking. Whatever that is for you now is something yet to be discovered. For me it has been an amazement unlike any other. When I started sliding away from the institutional SY it was because I couldn't put up with the abuse any longer. However I still held that woman sacred for years after. The neurotic loop (thanks for the very clear paradigm Howie) didn't snap until a few months ago, when I finally saw her for what she was. Here's the interesting part. I no longer need mood elevators or valium or any kind of mood altering substance. The pain SY claims to fix is apparently induced by SY itself. This is that overall mental malaise you mentioned. I am now free of it and I have to report, I never knew I could be this happy. Of course I never knew I was unhappy until SY told me I was. I suppose this is trite but it's kind of like quitting smoking. It's a drag in the beginning but one morning you wake up and breath. The birds are singing and you have no desire to do that to yourself again. Hmmmmm there seems to be an addiction element here. Anyway, keep talking to your clean friends. And stay away from those pushers. Good luck Beau Subj: wisdom 1 of 2 Date: 96-05-28 06:36:43 EDT From: Dissent222 Dear Folks - Wow, you guys are really spelling it all out. There's more wisdom on this board in the last few weeks than in 20 years of Butt Rambler's Convolution Course put together. Some of you are pulling out of syda in the last few months. It will be 1yr. 7 mos. since I pulled out, although there were 2 years prior to that of underground rumblings for me. I had doubts from the very beginning, too. Why was I so enraged and depressed at the ashram? Why were the managers and swamis and staff so angry and rude? In 1985, as GM announced that her brother would be stepping down (it was at the end of an Intensive in GSP), I remember looking at her and thinking to myself "she is lying through her teeth." It was all this nonsense about how Baba had only said Nit would help 3 years, how he wanted to get married, etc etc. The real truth was that her brother hated George Afif, who had just pleaded no contest to statutory rape of a 16 yr. old in Oakland. Nityananda didn't want to cover up what Afif had done, but rather open it up publicly. That's when Afif took things in his own hands, engineered Nit's captivity, made death threats against him, presided with GM over the beating he was given by other devotees, and concocted the whole stepping down story - making sure Nit signed away all his rights to his inheritance. (Nit was an irresponsible, womanizing, pleasure loving kid, and I still wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.) As I looked at GM in this Intensive, thinking to myself, "she's lying," she looked straight at me. I looked in her eyes. I still knew she was lying. She looked away. At the end, I got up on the darshan line and did full pranam. That was it. I shut my mind to it all right then. No matter what, whatever lies and abuse I witnessed or was asked to participate in, I decided I'd go along, because I figured none of it mattered as long as she had the power to give shaktipat. At that moment I decided that I would be an accomplice, but I only know now that I was an accomplice to a psychopath. Shaktipat is no longer a holy word to me - any unsrupulous psychopath can grab hold of this kind of power over others and use it for utterly selfish reasons. History's full of examples. If GM and Baba are examples of the full enfoldment of kundalini after shaktipat - WHO NEEDS IT???????? ECCCH!!!!!!! It was 94 when I left, first involved in 1981. Many years lost. Well, I enjoyed travelling all over the world, that was cool. I did develop some skills and talents (in spite of constant put downs and insults and betrayals and sabotage from Afif and GM). And I, too, stopped doing some very overt self-destructive things - like stopped drugging and drinking and sexing. But I traded that for addictive, self-destructive enslavement to a psychopath. We all got swindled, and we even contributed to swindling others. Someone even called me a Nazi once, as I scurried around when Nit first escaped and declared himself a guru. I went to spy on his meetings and inform on any GM devotees who dared to go see him - yes, GM got a list of the names of people, some of whom were banished from her ashram, while others just had Avinash and the security mafia keeping an eye on them. see part 2 Subj: wisdom 2 of 2 Date: 96-05-28 06:38:05 EDT From: Dissent222 part 2 Almost 2 years into this recovery, I'm much less depressed and enraged. Rough patches are always there, but I'm moving on with my life and doing so REALLY much more productively with all my syda ties cut. I am learning how to esteem myself rather than try to disguise my self-loathing with devotion to a psychopath. I am trying to be in relationship to others rather than having the constant hidden agenda of getting people to join and stay in syda - or the constant hidden agenda of trying to be worthy enough in GM's eyes to be included in her world. No more hidden agendas: I'm here to tell the truth about syda, to myself and to others, and to help myself and anyone I can with the process of leaving syda and moving on to freedom. A word on masochism: The pain people think they need to experience